Load workup results - Uberti 1858 with Round Ball and Conical

M

maillemaker

New member
So I got to the range this afternoon and tried out my new-to-me Uberti 1858 Remington New Army. I had loads worked up from 14 grains to 28 grains, 6 shots each of .457 round ball and Lee 90382 Conical.

I intended to shoot wads for the first time, but clearly I don't know what I'm doing. The gun came with a TON of wads. These are lubricated. Evidently, they are really lubricated. I started off with 14 grains and put in 5 wads to fill the gap under the bullet, then seated the bullet. But the lube in the wads was pressed out of them and saturated the powder, ruining them. I had to remove the nipple on a couple of chambers and knock the ball out from the back end. I guess if you are going to use wads you cannot compress them.

Anyway, I reverted back to Cream of Wheat filler for the remainder of the test.

I adjusted the windage after the 14 grain test, and after shooting the 16 grain round ball test. After that windage was dead on.

As expected, 18 grains is a good load, and groups got progressively worse as the load increased from there. However, the graph indicates that I should revisit 14 and 16 grain loads. Generally speaking round ball performed better than the Lee 90382 Conical bullet, but I sure like loading the conicals better than round ball. The bottom of the Lee bullet is not quite heeled, but it does fit into the chamber so it sits nicely for loading, shaving lead on the rest of the bullet. The round balls you have to roll around looking for the sprue to point upwards.

You can see the results here:

http://imgur.com/a/vrrIy

eukeSHN.png
 
When you use wads, just put one under each chamber.
Click to expand...

Do you mean under the bullet?

I was hoping to use wads instead of filler to raise the bullet up to the face of the cylinder. I find that accuracy is improved when the bullet is seated closer to the face of the cylinder.

Steve
 
Years ago, I did a similar work up on my older Pietta Remington.
(Mid nineties made, maybe?)
It turned out that 25 grains of 777 with a 454 ball was best.
Made it feel more like a modern revolver.
Even slightly smaller balls worked about as well, if that's all that was available.
Apparently every shootin' iron is different and deserving of individual consideration.
 
What sort of velocity does the 18gr load get you?

It seems a shame that the higher loads don't give the same performance as I imagine near 60% in charge must make a difference to range. Perhaps not such an issue with a handgun.

Also I'm guessing this is .44 cal? If so any reason you haven't used the .454 cal roundballs?

BTW, I ask all this because I still love the Uberti 1858 Rem carbine, so things like range and velocity probably matter more with that model.
 
Maillemaker

You will probably hear from others who do it differently, but this is what I have found to work for me. YMMV.

I charge the cylinder with powder, insert ONE wad and press it in with the loading ram or a wood dowel 'till it's just on the powder, then I use a measured amount of Cream of Wheat under the ball so that the ball, when seated,ends up close to, but not beyond the mouth of the cylinder. I finish by covering the ball with lube, grease, or Bore Butter.

Some experimenting with just how much powder and filler to use and recording the results as you have been doing should get you to the ten ring in no time.

Rich
 
What sort of velocity does the 18gr load get you?

It seems a shame that the higher loads don't give the same performance as I imagine near 60% in charge must make a difference to range. Perhaps not such an issue with a handgun.

Also I'm guessing this is .44 cal? If so any reason you haven't used the .454 cal roundballs?
Click to expand...

I would love to have a chronograph to record velocities, but alas I do not have one.

It has long been known in competition shooting circles like the N-SSA that maximum loads are seldom the most accurate.

It should be noted, however, that at 25 yards I feel that the accuracy of the Uberti was plenty fine right up through 28 grains of powder. The average diameter of the group was never more than about 3". So in terms of shooting a person, that's plenty good even at full power. If, however, you're trying to do like a fellow did at the last skirmish and score a perfect 50 with X's, you'll need to hold a 1" group or better.

I have not tried .454 in this Uberti; my Pietta's all shoot .454. My Uberti Walker shoots .457. Since I can easily load the .457 in the .454 guns, I use .457 exclusively to not have to cast and store two different sizes of ball.

I charge the cylinder with powder, insert ONE wad and press it in with the loading ram or a wood dowel 'till it's just on the powder, then I use a measured amount of Cream of Wheat under the ball so that the ball, when seated,ends up close to, but not beyond the mouth of the cylinder. I finish by covering the ball with lube, grease, or Bore Butter.
Click to expand...

I'm just leery now of compressing these lubricated wads. I do like the idea of a divider between the powder and the cream of wheat. I may try a cardboard wad. I am concerned about inconsistent powder charge dilution and I though a wad might mitigate that.

Steve
 
If you want to use felt wads as filler I'd suggest buying felt from durofelt and punching your own wads. It's far cheaper and without lube. I've considered this myself (trying dry wads as filler).

My Pietta NMA does best with 30 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7, but then I'm after a compromise between power and accuracy as it is a hunting sidearm.
 
I use felt from Durofelt , cut my own wads then lube them with homemade Gatofeo lube.

Cap and Ball pistol shooters, make your own wonder wads and lube...


acmech1 [Member]

11/10/2009 8:39:32 PM EDT

If you do, here is a good tip for you if you use Wonder wads. You can make your own. Here is some info. telling you how, its a great article, I've included some info. in this post from it. It's not my info. but it comes from a gentleman named Gatofeo. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=123266

Basically call www.Durofelt.com at 501-225-2838 and tell the nice lady you want Item FM1836H, its a 54"x36" piece of 1/8 thick hard wool felt for $30 with free shipping. It is estimated you can get 7700 wads from a piece of material this size. For .31 or .32 caliber, use a 5/16 inch or 7.5 or 8mm wad punch. For .36 caliber use a 3/8 inch or 9.5 or 10mm wad punch. For .44 or .45 caliber revolvers, or .45-caliber rifles, use a .45-caliber or 11mm or 11.25 to 11.5 mm wad punch. For .50 caliber, use a 1/2 inch or 12.5mm wad punch. The author of the original post uses a 7/16's punch for 44-45 caliber wads. Its a good writeup covering his homemade blackpowder bore lube as well. My Uncle shot black powder most of his life and he didn't know this and it would have saved him a lot of money. Again, it isn't my idea, but I ordered some felt and am going to try it. I was inspired to find an alternative to commercial wads since Bass Pro. wants $11 for just 50!! Yes, they are cheaper elsewhere, but they pushed me over the edge since I drove 50 min. to the Bass pro.

Here is a cut and paste of the original authors recipe for blackpowder lube.

MAKING THE BEST LUBRICANT
Measure out:
Mutton tallow 200 grams
Canning paraffin 200 grams
Beeswax 100 grams
Place this amount in a wide mouth, one quart Mason jar. Place the jar into a pot containing four or five inches of boiling water for a double-boiler effect. This is the safest way to melt waxes and greases. Just in case of a fire, keep a box of Baking Powder handy ––- but away from any flame area so you can get to it.
When the ingredients are thoroughly melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick.
Remove from heat. Allow the lubricant to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate. When cool and hardened, screw the cap down tight on the jar and store in a cool, dry place.
What makes this lubricant so good? I believe it's not only the mutton tallow but the inclusion of paraffin, which stiffens the wad somewhat and makes it a more effective fouling scraper.
I've tried other lubricants, commercial and homemade, and still haven't found one that works as well as this recipe. It works equally well in other black powder applications.
It doesn't smell too bad, either. It's different, but it won't stink up the kitchen like melting chassis grease and other noxious ingredients often found in bullet lubricant recipes.

LUBRICATING WADS
For rifle and revolver wads, I use a clean tuna or pet food can with the paper label removed.
Place the can on a cast iron skillet, or in a low pan of boiling water. You may also place the can directly on the burner, if it's kept at low heat and you watch it like a hawk.
Melt 2 Tablespoons of lubricant in the can. Add the wads. I can usually get 100 .36 to .45 caliber wads in a can, the larger ones if I cram them in a bit.
Stir the wads into the lubricant until they're thoroughly soaked. Add more lubricant if it looks like the wads are rather dry. You want a wad that is soaked with lubricant.
No need to squeeze out the excess lubricant, simply remove the can from the heat and allow cooling with the wads and lubricant in it. When cool snap a plastic, pet food cover over the can and store the wads in a cool, dry place.
Now, you have a container to take to the range. And when you run low on wads, simply reheat the can, add more lubricant and wads, and refill it.
Cans may be marked .36 or .44 or whatever on the side with a large felt pen and stacked on top of each other for easy identification.

Again, it isn't my idea or my information, I'm just passing it along to benefit others. Read the original post, there's more info in it there.

Credit for the info goes to:
Gatofeo
Copyright 2009
Remote Utah desert
gatofeo@cut.net
 
The problem I'm having with the lube-soaked wads is they are ruining the powder when compressed under the bullet.

How do you guys stop that?

Steve
 
I have never run into that problem. My suspicion is that the lube on the wads you are using is far too wet, which then gets squeezed out into the powder. If you squeeze the wad between your fingers and liquid comes out, it is the wrong lube.
Most folks use a lube that is largely beeswax, tallow and/or paraffin based. If you squeeze them with your fingers, liquid does not come out, you just might end up with sticky fingers.
I use homemade durofelt wads with a slightly different recipe from Gatofeo's and never have the issue you mentioned. Next time I plan to try Gatofeo's recipe as well.
 
I make my lubed wads and also punch out card wads. There isn't much lube that squishes out but if the gun is not to be shot right away I use the card wad over the powder.
 
I use homemade Durofelt wads, but not lubed. I just put a fingertip of Gatofeo over the wad, under the ball and forego the lube over the ball for sealing. I have not had a problem with fouling, but haven't shot that many consecutive cylinders for a real test.

One thing though, I followed the directions carefully, as given in the post above and the sticky on this forum. I measured the paraffin, bee's wax and tallow by weight on my scales (don't know the scale's accuracy, but the ratio should still be the same). The resultant lube is hard enough that it is a little difficult to dig out with a finger. And that is summer temperatures. It seems to me that it would work well as a cast bullet groove lube.

I guess it works well, it must splatter internally in the barrel, but I wish it was a little easier to get just a dab on the fingertip. I am not doing cast bullets so I will probably mix in something to soften the lube like olive oil to make it easier to dab.
 
Foolzrushn,
The way to tell if you have enough lube is to look at the muzzle to see if there is a "star" of lube around the muzzle/crown. If it is dry and fouled, then your lube is not coating the entire barrel. If you have a star of lube at the muzzle then you have enough.

I would think that finger coating a felt wad is not enough, but I have not tried that.

As 44Dave said, if you are worried about lube migrating into the powder column over a long time, then use an over powder card.
Cheers,
 
I lube my cap n ball pistol bullets and Lee REALs with the same Gatofeo lube. It seems to be perfect, and according to Gatofeo, was a recipe for outside lubricated bullets to begin with.
 
A few years back, getting ready for a trip to the range, there wasn't a single lubed wad in the kit.
Horrors, how did that ever happen?
Looking around the place for a substitute, a roll of thick gasket paper revealed itself.
So, I cut out a bunch of suitable disks and took them along.
No lube or anything, there wasn't time to mess with that.
They worked so well, that's all I use now.
Just dry gasket paper under the ball.
But fouling isn't nearly an issue since switching to 777.
 
Yup, I took one and put it in my vice and squeezed it, and sure enough, oil comes out. I think my loading ram is compressing the wads enough to squeeze out the lube.

Steve
 
50/50 beeswax & olive oil makes an easy lube to mix for your felt wads. You can buy 45 cal un lubed or lubed wads from circle fly. I get the 1/2" thick fiber filler wads, lube them and then split them into 2 or 3 wads and it saves a ton on cost.
 
My two cents on the usage of a wad. I have no experience using them. I do not use them because I've seen someone use wads, and the wad made it to 25 yards and put a hole in the paper. From my understanding this is a rare ocurance but it jeapordized the score of that target. Wad or no wad you can only have ten holes on a target in a match. Trying to or having to explain that one of 11 is a wad is tricky. In the event that you have more than 10 holes on the paper they count your worst ten meaning they start discarding your best shots. So for safety and insurance sake - I don't see a lot of competitive shooters using wads. How do we insure powder doesn't mix with filler? Simple. Powder, tap cylinder to settle, then filler but bring the level of the filler just below the top of a full chamber. This way you're compressing the powder some but it's to pin the powder and filler in place so they don't mix. The idea behind controlling seat deapth and the amount of filler isn't so you DONT compress the powder. It's so that you simply load every chamber the same way every time. When working up a load you can try different amounts of filler to see if it changes the compression of the powder enough to change velocities or accuracy.,
 
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