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Load data needed
- Thread starter alanwk
- Start date
I don't have missouri, however I have used similar bullets before. My personally recommendation would be to use lead or plated bullet load data. Start at the starting load and work up.
Hodgdon load data here https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
Listed load for berrys plated bullets, similar to lead, is a start of 6.6g max of 7.4g with HS-6. check your manuals.
Keep an eye on things. I had an issues with the hi-tek coating coming off and badly fouling my barrel in 9mm. different brand, and I was pushing them kinda fast, 124g around 1200fps...but something to keep an eye out for.
Hodgdon load data here https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
Listed load for berrys plated bullets, similar to lead, is a start of 6.6g max of 7.4g with HS-6. check your manuals.
Keep an eye on things. I had an issues with the hi-tek coating coming off and badly fouling my barrel in 9mm. different brand, and I was pushing them kinda fast, 124g around 1200fps...but something to keep an eye out for.
Last edited:
44AMP
What should the OP ask them about?
About load data? Whether to use 10% reduced loads? If so reduced from what, jacketed or cast lead?
I'm guessing a newer loader from the question? (fill us in OP) at least new here.. Your answer was a bit vague...
In my experience and research, the coating is supposed to be an improvement. Some people are able to shoot coated bullets the same as jacketed bullets. some shoot them the same as lead bullets. A lot of it really depends on how your gun and individual barrel handles them? As well as the pressure the bullet is subjected to, which will vary with powder and charge weight among other things. start at the starting load and work up. see how your gun performs.
What is the gun your loading for by the way?
What should the OP ask them about?
About load data? Whether to use 10% reduced loads? If so reduced from what, jacketed or cast lead?
I'm guessing a newer loader from the question? (fill us in OP) at least new here.. Your answer was a bit vague...
In my experience and research, the coating is supposed to be an improvement. Some people are able to shoot coated bullets the same as jacketed bullets. some shoot them the same as lead bullets. A lot of it really depends on how your gun and individual barrel handles them? As well as the pressure the bullet is subjected to, which will vary with powder and charge weight among other things. start at the starting load and work up. see how your gun performs.
What is the gun your loading for by the way?
44AMP
What should the OP ask them about?
Well, to start with, what have they tested and what do they recommend??
who else knows what they are dealing with better than the people who made it??
Some people are able to shoot coated bullets the same as jacketed bullets. some shoot them the same as lead bullet
And different makers using different coatings may each tell you different things.
One maker may say "our bullets are coated with special goop A, so treat them like jacketed bullets" and another might tell you "we use special goop B, treat them like lead bullets".
The best you can hope for is some maker who did their testing and will tell you "we tested HS-6 5.5gr with bullet A and got xxxfps and ZKk pressure, and we tested bullet A with Unique, 6gr and got xyz fpr and Zwk pressure".
That, at least is a start.
Coated bullets are like plated bullets in that, the only people who know for sure what is on the bullet are the people who put it there, so I think those folks are the first ones to go to with questions about their bullets.
jetinteriorguy
New member
As a general guideline I've found using mid level cast to mid level jacketed load levels is safe. It seems the best loads always tend to be at the upper cast level or lower jacketed level. This is just my personal experience, not necessarily a recommendation so take it for what it’s worth. As always start at the low levels and work up, don’t just randomly choose a load and give it a whirl. If you happen to notice a slight burnt plastic smell you’re driving them way to hard, don’t ask how I know. I figured it out when they shut down the range when they thought they smell burnt wiring, and cleaning the melted residue out of the barrel took a bit of an effort but acetone did the trick. I just plugged the barrel, filled it with acetone and plugged the chamber and let it soak overnight.
One thing to watch out for in this short cartridge is bullet seating depth. If you look at Hodgdon's data, you notice the charges are half a grain larger for the Berry's Bullets (BERB) 180-grain FP than for the Hornady XTP. But when you look up the lengths of these bullets, the BERB FP is 0.596" long, and the XTP is 0.661" long, so 0.065" longer. Both used the same COL in the Hodgdon data, so the XTP was seated 0.035" deeper, and that is causing the pressure difference. In QuickLOAD, I moved the XTP forward 0.065", and then it took exactly half a grain more powder to reach the same velocity (within 2 fps). So while the velocity and small peak pressure difference in the two maximum 180-grain HS-6 loads in the Hodgdon data are due to the difference in bullet hardness and throat jump affecting the powder burn curve, the difference in maximum charge weight is mostly down to that seating depth difference.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL
For the XTP, seating depth was:
Seating Depth = 0.845" + 0.661" - 1.1250" = 0.381"
For the Berry's, it was:
Seating Depth = 0.845" + 0.596" - 1.1250" = 0.316"
0.381" - 0.316" = 0.065"
Note that the exact case length doesn't matter as long as you use the same one for both bullets, as the difference in seating depth will still come out correct. I usually just use the SAAMI case length less half the tolerance as that is a typical trim-to length.
If you have your bullet length and you know the COL it will have when loaded, you can see how it compares to the above numbers. If it is deeper than the XTP, it will need less powder. If it is shallower than the Berry's, it can tolerate more.
This is not precise information as it doesn't give you an exact load, but it does provide a sense of what to watch out for and expect. You can buy QuickLOAD or download the free Gordon's Reloading Tool to try the loads in. The pressure numbers rarely match very precisely, but the relative values tend to work out well, so you can see what percent pressure increase will tend to occur with seating depth change and what charge weight change is about right to correct for it. Then you approach the changes cautiously by starting low and working up while watching for pressure signs, like other load work-ups.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL
For the XTP, seating depth was:
Seating Depth = 0.845" + 0.661" - 1.1250" = 0.381"
For the Berry's, it was:
Seating Depth = 0.845" + 0.596" - 1.1250" = 0.316"
0.381" - 0.316" = 0.065"
Note that the exact case length doesn't matter as long as you use the same one for both bullets, as the difference in seating depth will still come out correct. I usually just use the SAAMI case length less half the tolerance as that is a typical trim-to length.
If you have your bullet length and you know the COL it will have when loaded, you can see how it compares to the above numbers. If it is deeper than the XTP, it will need less powder. If it is shallower than the Berry's, it can tolerate more.
This is not precise information as it doesn't give you an exact load, but it does provide a sense of what to watch out for and expect. You can buy QuickLOAD or download the free Gordon's Reloading Tool to try the loads in. The pressure numbers rarely match very precisely, but the relative values tend to work out well, so you can see what percent pressure increase will tend to occur with seating depth change and what charge weight change is about right to correct for it. Then you approach the changes cautiously by starting low and working up while watching for pressure signs, like other load work-ups.
Missouri Bullets does not recommend load data.Have you asked the people who make the bullets??
Jim Watson
New member
I was going to suggest the Lyman book, but their loads jacketed or cast are markedly heavier than Hodgdon's. I'd use the Hodgdon Berry's range.
Caveat: I have a chronograph and my main interest would be Major power factor loads. So when I got a 180 to about 950 fps, I would be satisfied.
Caveat: I have a chronograph and my main interest would be Major power factor loads. So when I got a 180 to about 950 fps, I would be satisfied.
Missouri Bullets does not recommend load data.
Ok, in that case, I would not recommend Missouri bullets!
I'm not joking.
is it, a "we just make it, YOU figure out how to use it!" kind of thing??
One can, carefully, step by step develop safe loads, and one should for their individual guns, but doing it almost completely in the dark is tedious and no help or guidance of any kind from the maker is ...well, less than helpful, shall we say.
As has been already pointed out, their bullet is likely not the exactly the same as someone else's bullet of the same caliber and weight, which can affect seating depth and available case volume. Plus its coated with something.... is that something that means you can up the powder charge, or something that requires you to lower it? How much?
If the maker doesn't at least helpfully point you in the right direction, I think they are not good people to do business with. OF course, that's just me...
The key point here, for me, is the coated bullet. And would be the same if it were a plated bullet. Regular cast bullets are a known quantity. As are jacketed bullets. Lots of data for both types to use to choose a general starting point, and test to refine that for the specific bullet you're using in your gun.
Plated and coated bullets can be all over the map. The thickness and properties of the plating or the coating can vary a lot between different makers. And the differences between them and regular lead alloy and regular jacketed bullets very well could require adjustment (change) to your loading formulas and process. But one needs to KNOW that, and if the maker won't tell you ANYthing, Then its ALL up to you to figure it out, and doing that, to me, is a lack of customer service and so I would not recommend that company. They may make a fine product, but if they're not helpful in any other way, then i think there are better people to do business with.
Good luck.
I kinda agree. Here is their statement on website.Ok, in that case, I would not recommend Missouri bullets!
I'm not joking.
is it, a "we just make it, YOU figure out how to use it!" kind of thing??
One can, carefully, step by step develop safe loads, and one should for their individual guns, but doing it almost completely in the dark is tedious and no help or guidance of any kind from the maker is ...well, less than helpful, shall we say.
As has been already pointed out, their bullet is likely not the exactly the same as someone else's bullet of the same caliber and weight, which can affect seating depth and available case volume. Plus its coated with something.... is that something that means you can up the powder charge, or something that requires you to lower it? How much?
If the maker doesn't at least helpfully point you in the right direction, I think they are not good people to do business with. OF course, that's just me...
The key point here, for me, is the coated bullet. And would be the same if it were a plated bullet. Regular cast bullets are a known quantity. As are jacketed bullets. Lots of data for both types to use to choose a general starting point, and test to refine that for the specific bullet you're using in your gun.
Plated and coated bullets can be all over the map. The thickness and properties of the plating or the coating can vary a lot between different makers. And the differences between them and regular lead alloy and regular jacketed bullets very well could require adjustment (change) to your loading formulas and process. But one needs to KNOW that, and if the maker won't tell you ANYthing, Then its ALL up to you to figure it out, and doing that, to me, is a lack of customer service and so I would not recommend that company. They may make a fine product, but if they're not helpful in any other way, then i think there are better people to do business with.
Good luck.
We do not provide load data. Online resources include hodgdon.com and loaddata.com. Recommended book is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
BHN 12 bullets work best at up to approximately 850 fps. BHN 18, faster.
We don't know if a particular bullet will fit your particular gun. You need to do some basic research on your gun to match it to the right bullet(s.)
If it were me this would be my processI kinda agree. Here is their statement on website.
We do not provide load data. Online resources include hodgdon.com and loaddata.com. Recommended book is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
BHN 12 bullets work best at up to approximately 850 fps. BHN 18, faster.
We don't know if a particular bullet will fit your particular gun. You need to do some basic research on your gun to match it to the right bullet(s.)
1- I would start by loading couple dummy bullets, probably round 5. just a bullet and brass, no powder no primer. I would start at max COL of 1.135 . Then check to see if they fit in the magazine, then do a plunk test if it passes your good to go. if it fails plunk, shorten one of your dummies until it passes. then do the same for the other 5. After I know the load will cycle, then its time to go to powder
2- Powder. I would use the Hodgdon data from their website. 6.6g max of 7.4g with HS-6. I would load up 5rnds each, starting with the starting load, and going up in 0.2g increments
5- 6.6g
5-6.8g
5-7.0g
5-7.2g
5-7.4g
write the charge load on the brass with a sharpie.
3- testing. then its off the the range. If you can use a chronograph all the better, if you cant that's fine too.
start with your starting load and work your way up. shoot 1. did it eject and feed? did it feel normal, weak, or heavy? how does the primer look? is it still rounded at the edges? is it flattened or flowed? how does the case mouth look? A dirty case mouth can indicate a poor burn or low pressure, indicating you might need to increase the charge weight.
If everything looks ok, fire the next 4 from that batch. watch how the brass ejects. does it just fall out of the gun? does it throw it normally? or does it launch it into near earth orbit? if its weak, you need to go up, normal is fine. launching means your near the top end.
After finishing the first 5 I would check the barrel for any leading or coating deposits. just look through it.
repeat the process for each batch of 5.
listed velocity at max is 1041fps with a 4in barrel. so even if you get that kind of velocity, you should be fine imho with any bullet, including plain lead.
That is how I would proceed if I were loading with what you have.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.If it were me this would be my process
1- I would start by loading couple dummy bullets, probably round 5. just a bullet and brass, no powder no primer. I would start at max COL of 1.135 . Then check to see if they fit in the magazine, then do a plunk test if it passes your good to go. if it fails plunk, shorten one of your dummies until it passes. then do the same for the other 5. After I know the load will cycle, then its time to go to powder
2- Powder. I would use the Hodgdon data from their website. 6.6g max of 7.4g with HS-6. I would load up 5rnds each, starting with the starting load, and going up in 0.2g increments
5- 6.6g
5-6.8g
5-7.0g
5-7.2g
5-7.4g
write the charge load on the brass with a sharpie.
3- testing. then its off the the range. If you can use a chronograph all the better, if you cant that's fine too.
start with your starting load and work your way up. shoot 1. did it eject and feed? did it feel normal, weak, or heavy? how does the primer look? is it still rounded at the edges? is it flattened or flowed? how does the case mouth look? A dirty case mouth can indicate a poor burn or low pressure, indicating you might need to increase the charge weight.
If everything looks ok, fire the next 4 from that batch. watch how the brass ejects. does it just fall out of the gun? does it throw it normally? or does it launch it into near earth orbit? if its weak, you need to go up, normal is fine. launching means your near the top end.
After finishing the first 5 I would check the barrel for any leading or coating deposits. just look through it.
repeat the process for each batch of 5.
listed velocity at max is 1041fps with a 4in barrel. so even if you get that kind of velocity, you should be fine imho with any bullet, including plain lead.
That is how I would proceed if I were loading with what you have.
We do not provide load data. Online resources include hodgdon.com and loaddata.com. Recommended book is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
OK, that is different than providing nothing at all. They are telling you to use cast bullet data, which is enough to get them off my "poo list" as a business to deal with.
They're lead bullets. Use data for cast lead bullets. The coating prevents leading but doesn't change what data you should use.
Starting 10% lower than what? Some companies only give 1 number and suggest a starting load of 10% less. Starting 10% lower than a recommended starting load might work, but would be a kind of anemic.
Starting 10% lower than what? Some companies only give 1 number and suggest a starting load of 10% less. Starting 10% lower than a recommended starting load might work, but would be a kind of anemic.
I always understand you should start 10% below max. Or use the start data if available. Maybe that is what they are saying.They're lead bullets. Use data for cast lead bullets. The coating prevents leading but doesn't change what data you should use.
Starting 10% lower than what? Some companies only give 1 number and suggest a starting load of 10% less. Starting 10% lower than a recommended starting load might work, but would be a kind of anemic.
I always understand you should start 10% below max. Or use the start data if available. Maybe that is what they are saying.
That's what I was trying to figure out.
Getting load data from videos has never been advisable. It's too easy make a slip of the tongue or have the advice misconstrued. Take the bullet manufacturers recommendations and use a published source for load data.
bullet seating can vary depending on the design or shape of the bullet. the right weight should get you in the ballpark. but if you using known load data, but with a non specific bullet but the right weigh, you kind of have take some measurements, do a little trial and error testing, and work up from start checking each charge weight carefully. if a given bullet sits into the case farther than the one used in testing it will reduce the case volume or create compression depending on the charge weight and volume of the powder. Hence start at start and work it up slow, see how it acts each step of the way.That's what I was trying to figure out.
Getting load data from videos has never been advisable. It's too easy make a slip of the tongue or have the advice misconstrued. Take the bullet manufacturers recommendations and use a published source for load data.
I tried some N340 in 9mm earlier this year with some hornady115g fmj. I had to use the trial an error method to find the proper seating depth. The starting load and the 0.2 above it were dropping the brass at my feet and the case mouths were covered in soot. really anemic. got all the way up to max and it was running ok, but velocity was poor, just a hare over 1100fps and the case mouths were still sooty. I considered seating them deeper to see if reducing the space in the case would help get a cleaner burn and better velocity, but power pistol was getting me over 1200fps with 124g bullets, so I left the N340 there. Trying some different powders has been interesting with the shortage.
Some companies only give 1 number and suggest a starting load of 10% less. Starting 10% lower than a recommended starting load might work, but would be a kind of anemic.
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
I always understand you should start 10% below max. Or use the start data if available. Maybe that is what they are saying.
Ages ago, when I began handloading, the standard recommendation was to start (approx) 10% BELOW STARTING LOAD. NOT 10% below MAX, you started BELOW the listed starting load. ALWAYS! (unless there was a specific warning not to such as may be found with certain slow powders).
Yes, it may not "work" (meaning it might not cycle your semi auto), and yes, 10% below starting load is kind of anemic. That's NOT the point.
The point is to take a load that ought to be safe, reduce it a bit just to be super careful, then test fire a few, to be certain it is safe, in YOUR gun. Then, you work up to the starting load and shoot some at that level, again to ensure things are ok in your gun with your components, before moving up in steps to full power (max) level loads.
You don't start at max, or even 10% under max because you don't know if that will be safe in your gun. Sure, it probably will be, but you can't KNOW until you test and blowing up your gun because you thought it was ok when it wasn't, and proper testing would have stopped you before you got there isn't a good thing.
I know, its slow, its frustrating, its a "waste" of bullets and components...BUT
There is a bell curve to these things. The majority are in the middle but there are always a few at each end. And if YOUR GUN happens to be the rare one at one end of the curve, what is a safe starting load could be an unsafe overpressure load in YOUR GUN.
I've seen guns that had sticky extraction, and cratered primers with factory loads and even some that did it was handloading starting loads which were even lower. And those guns were not mechanically deficient or broken, and were, technically "in spec".
so, for maximum safety, we start low, actually starting a little bit below "Low" and shoot a few. When they're safe, we step up to "low" and repeat the process until we get the desired velocity level.
we may get pressure signs and have to stop short of the data's listed max loads, too. And, I've seen guns where people loaded to well over listed max levels with no signs of excess pressure at all. Every gun and load combination is different. And in that difference is the potential to be radically different.
No one knows until it is tested by actual firing. No table of data fired in someone else's gun can tell you. No computer program can tell you.
Only test firing that combination of components in your gun can tell you.
Change anything, you MIGHT change everything enough to move from a safe level to an unsafe one. Again, live fire testing is the only way to know, which is also why we say drop down when you change components then work your way back up.
Sure, 99.9something % of the time its all good but the one time its not good it could be really bad, and really bad has cost people good guns, some fingers and even some eyes. A few have even lost more.
SO, go ahead and start where you think you must, start high to "save time" and you could very well have a lifetime of enjoyable and safe shooting. but, if the stars line up just the wrong way even once, you might regret it for a long time.
I'll be honest, I don't always start at the very bottom especially if most of what I'm using is something known and proven to me. But I never start at the top (or just under) when dealing with complete unknowns.
So far, I've always "gotten away with it", but its a risk, one I might be willing to take, but not one I will recommend to others.