Load data for plated bullets ( still confused )

M

Metal god

New member
From Rainier web site said:
Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our projectiles. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data. Our bullets are completely encapsulated in copper, creating a “Total Copper Jacket” (TCJ) through a specialized electroplating process, and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets.

We recommend a starting powder charge between the listed minimum and maximum load found in various published and reputable reloading manuals.
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First can someone please explain how that is not contradictory ?

Even if it's not What does start in between mean exactly as a whole ? Does it mean if min is 6gr and max is 7gr you start at 6.5 and can go how high . Is max still 7gr or can you go to 7.5gr seeing how the original load had one full grain from min to max ???

Then there's the guys that think using cast bullet data is best . On the whole it would seem safest seeing how generally speaking the lead data starts lower and maxes out lower . Then I look at the quote above and it clearly states there is no reason to adjust your charges when using jacketed data and if you do , go ahead and start higher then the jacketed minimum .

That would seem to fly in the face of using cast bullet data and the reason why many think that's where you should start . I believe the reasoning is that plated bullets generally will fall in between the hardness of lead and jacketed bullets . Therefore it would seem logical to me what the data should say and or you should use is . Start in the middle of cast data and max out in the middle of jacketed data ?????

FWIW the specific data I'm looking for is 9mm 115gr plated HP using HS-6 and CCI sp primers .

Hodgdon has the GDHP ( which is platted I think ) min 6.7 / max 7.0 and lead starting at 6.4 to 6.9

How ever when you look at Lyman or Hornady Jacketed bullets they both start lower with Hornady maxing out lower while Lyman maxes out at 7.2gr

Regardless , based on the quote at the top and all the data I have . I should be starting well in the 6.4gr+ area and maxing out ???? at this point I have no idea :confused: but even the 6.4gr sounds a bit high to start at ,:rolleyes: CALGON TAKE ME AWAY :D

I'm sorry if all that is confusing but I'm confused
 
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I'm not that confused. I see Raineers note to mean use published fmj data. Meaning if Joe powder is listed in Fred manual that Tina fmj's should be loaded 6.0-7.0, that you can use any charge 6.0-7.0.

As a side note, over pressure is best protected against by bad accuracy. If max load is too hot, your gun should tell you by having poorer accuracy.
 
Most plated bullet have a maximum recommended velocity of 1200fps. Some have thicker plating and can be pushed to 1500fps
Hodgdon's web sight has data for Berry's plated.
 
You should always start at the low end of published data and then work up.

By the way only load 5-10 rounds and then test. That way you don't have to take 50 rounds apart when you find it wasn't any good.
 
I had the same problem last month.

The OP has plenty of Jacketed and Lead data, but not sure what to use as a reference for plated.

Nick seems to be the resident expert on plated loads, and he advised me on using middle of the road jacketed data (I had been using lead data). There was also a healthy discussion on powder brand choices and crimping when using plated.

Here is a link to the thread:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583702
 
The max is still 7 in your example. I don't see anything contradictory at all in their statement. Start at 6.5 test for accuracy, functionality, etc. Adjust if necessary. Use the max as the max and the min as the minimum.
 
OK , I guess I could be over thinking things . Not like I've ever done that before :D

I still don't like the 6.7 start load so my load development will look like this

6.3 , 6.5 , 6.7 , 6.8 , 6.9 , 7.0 ??????
 
Metal god, I can relate to what you're going thru. I have recently started loading for 9mm this year and am exclusively using plated bullets.

First thing you will notice is that Barry's, Rainier and Xtreme all make the same general state about finding and using load data. Next the powder manufacturers do not list much data for plated bullets but it's getting better. Most of what I've found is incomplete. So far the 2 best I have found are Hodgdon and Western/Accurate with Accurate being the better of the 2.

More importantly when loading these is the seating depth and case volume then powder type then bullet shape or profile. Over-all length for these different bullets can very greatly due to the profile vs. weight. A longer length with the same bullet will generally produce lower pressure until the length get to a point that it starts to create more pressure because the charge is too low.

If you'd like PM me and I can describe what I found and went thru to get where I'm at. Believe me I've learned much over the past few months as I'm currently loading 3 different weights and profiles of Berry's plated bullets.
 
Thanks kmw .

I to load almost exclusively plated bullet in hand gun 9mm and 45acp and started loading handgun almost 2 years ago after loading rifle for several years .

My true issue is less knowing where or how to load platted bullets . I've loaded well over 2k so far . This really has to do with this specific bullet . I had bought 1500 147gr Rainier plated HP and worked up some pretty accurate loads. I then got to thinking how reliable there expansion is so I emailed rainier and asked at what velocity there 9mm reliably expand . They told me 1200fps do to the relatively small HP cavity . Well that was not what I was hoping to hear because I'm only in the 950fps area with these 147gr. Bullets .

So I went ahead and bought 1k of there 115gr PLHP to try out . I figure I should be able to get those to 1200fps with HS-6 or CFE-pistol . Normally I'd just start low and when I found an accurate load I'd stop regardless of what charge it was . If the first load worked great , I'd might shoot a couple charges higher but likely would stop and go with that low charge .

How ever in this case I'm actually looking for a specific velocity that is right around max for both the bullet and charges . This has made me approach this specific load a bit different then others . If this was me working up just a regular 115gr load I would not be using HS-6 . I'd be using Titegroup or HP-38 . IMHO HS-6 it to slow for the 115gr 9mm bullet but I need it to hit that 1200fps velocity threshold . Again it appears I may have been over thinking this a bit .
 
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Understand now.

While I was looking thru the load data I was able to find online from the Manf. there didn't seem to be much available for anything over 1100fps. Reason I was looking is because Berry's states their Hollow Base Thick Plated are good up to 1500fps. and I couldn't find any that would come close w/o extremely high pressures.
 
We sure talk a lot about plated bullets here :D

We recommend a starting powder charge between the listed minimum and maximum load found in various published and reputable reloading manuals.
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I think - think - they mean to start at a point between two published sources of their minimum charge weights. e.g., if reliable source A starts at 4.6 grains, and reliable source B starts at 4.0 grains, then the loader should start at the point between - 4.3 grains. At least, it would make more sense if that's what they meant.

I believe the reasoning is that plated bullets generally will fall in between the hardness of lead and jacketed bullets.
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One thing not factored in here is that a plated bullet has unlubricated copper dragging down the barrel; and a lead bullet has lubricated lead dragging down the barrel. That is the primary difference - not hardness. Plated bullets have considerably more friction going down the barrel - more similar to jacketed, than lead.

This is why I cringe when I read someone suggesting to use lead data and start at the bottom of the scale. It probably is safe in a semi-auto; but can be a real threat of a stuck bullet in a revolver with its barrel/cylinder gap bleeding off precious gasses.

Therefore it would seem logical to me what the data should read, and/or you should use is: Start in the middle of cast data and max out in the middle of jacketed data?
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You may have swerved into the correct answer. You reached the destination, but took the wrong road there :p.

Fortunately, I don't spend a lot of time toiling over this issue. Here's what I do, and it's somehow simple in my head:

For the low-pressures cartridges of 38/44 Special, and 45 ACP: I use jacketed data from the bottom to the top end. With these low pressure rounds, plating breakdown is not going to be an issue anywhere on the load scale.

For 9mm: I use jacketed data in all but the very top end. If I'm going full-throttle, I move to jacketed bullets. Otherwise, it's all plated.

For 357 Mag, and 10mm: I use jacketed data up to about the middle of the road. Beyond that, I move to jacketed bullets.

For 44 Mag: I use jacketed bullets only. But that's more of a case of load style. I would follow the above rule with 357M/10mm, except when I load 44 Mag, I make 'em pretty juicy. I just have no use for low-to-middle power 44Mag.
 
Nick, we do seem to talk a lot about plated bullets. I believe that's because their use is becoming more widespread. Now if only the powder suppliers would keep up with this trend.

As I mentioned earlier from what I've found Western/Accurate seems to have the most complete listing of plated data that I've seen.
 
You may have swerved into the correct answer. You reached the destination, but took the wrong road there .
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As much as I like being in the right place . I really don't like being wrong in how I got there . That can be a very bad if you use the same wrong assumptions elsewhere . Thanks for the heads up .

And your explanation to use in between the two separate low charges makes way more sense then starting in the middle of any one load spectrum .

While I have you guys here . Why is lead data less . You'd think if the bullet slips down the barrel easier . You could use a bigger charge . Seeing how the concept is the gases need to keep up with the bullet . If the bullet scoots down the bore with less resistance , you'd think less pressure can build up behind that bullet and more powder can be used but it's the opposite . ???
 
I don't have experience with them but I believe it's for the same reason that metal checks are used on some pistol and rifle bullets. To prevent the bullet base from melting and fouling the barrel.

The one thing I found while on Accurate site they have data for both the Berry's 124gr RN and the 124gr Hollow base. the Hollow base uses almost a full gr. less charge than the RN of the same weight with the same powder. Yet both are developing near the same FPS.
 
I have read that lead data is lower due to the larger diameter bullets that are used. Typical lead bullets for 9mm would be .356 or .357 while jacketed bullets would be .355. Lead preforms better .001 or .002 over the groove diameter. The problem with .001 or .002 larger than the bore is that there is more initial resistance to the bullet sizing down for the rifling. This additional resistance when entering the rifling causes a slightly higher spike in pressure. Once the lead gets moving down the bore the resistance is less than copper jacket or plating.

The higher initial pressure and less resistance making it down the rifling makes sticking a bullet much less likely with lead.

Realistically your starting load with plated bullets is somewhere in between the Min and Max for lead. With pistol reloading as long as the bullet exits the barrel you are safe, however velocities below 600 FPS are going to get erratic.
 
Why is lead data less?
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Usually, or at least often, lead data is "capped" around 1000 f/s or so, for the sake of barrel leading issues - not pressure.

You'd think if the bullet slips down the barrel easier . You could use a bigger charge.
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You'd think so - and in terms of pressure - you'd be correct. But again, lead data is usually capped. There's lots of loaders out there shooting hot lead rounds, going way beyond published lead data. How they do this without major leading problems is outside the scope of this thread; so I'm not going there.

Just to keep us all in the right perspective: Let's not forget that "lead data" and "jacketed data" are not entirely different things. Usually, there's a great deal of "overlap" between the two. It's not like they bear no resemblance to one-another.

Realistically your starting load with plated bullets is somewhere in between the Min and Max for lead.
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Agree.

With pistol reloading, as long as the bullet exits the barrel you are safe, however velocities below 600 FPS are going to get erratic.
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Agree. Good points reddog81
 
Thanks guys , My load work up is as follows

10 of each - 6.1 / 6.3 / 6.5 / 6.7 / 6.8 / 6.9

I'll be testing these tomorrow I'll update when I have results .
 
10 of each - 6.1 / 6.3 / 6.5 / 6.7 / 6.8 / 6.9
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Your approach looks good.

HS-6 tends to prefer heavy bullets; but that rule tends to be washed out in 9mm. I think you'll be pleased on the higher end of this workup.

I've gone a little higher with Speer's 115 TMJ (a thick plated bullet) with good results.

Looking forward to your report.
 
Nick, we do seem to talk a lot about plated bullets. I believe that's because their use is becoming more widespread.
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I meant to comment on this ^^ earlier.

Yes. Absolutely. I agree.

I like plated bullets a lot. They're clean, easy to work with, keep your barrel clean, and are economical. Well worth the small extra cost over lead.

But I still load a lot of lead bullets. I like lead. Partially because I shoot a lot of 38 Special and 45 ACP - both well suited for lead. And partially because I like the available casting profiles offered all over the interweb. And partially because I have just loaded lead for decades - call it tradition or whatever. I like lead. And lead is accurate - very accurate.
 
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