Litigation Nightmare

H

Hann

New member
In any available caliber; Glasers, Exotics, +P JHP's. I am a legal CCW and live in the South East. God forbid I ever have to use my weapon for self defense (Kahr MK9), but the question I have is using these "higher performance rounds" for self defense opening up a litigation nightmare for a possible prosecution team that might claim that "the standard ammo wasn't enough" he had to use.... 9mm +P 124 GS's. If you end up dead by the BG, of course it's not and issue, you become a statistic. I practice with 124gr. Ball, and I shoot a lot. I have become very accurate with ball ammo. But the question of "over penetration" and hurting innocent bystanders becomes and issue. Your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Either way, if I have to use my gun for self defense, I guess I am guaranteed a civil suit, whatever the circumstances.

Any attorney's or people out there who have encountered this type of litigation nightmare? I know, always consult an attorney before answering any question should the situation of self-protection arise.

Thanks for your input.

Best Regards,
Hann
 
If the situation is one of pure self defense, I doubt the gun or the ammo will make much difference. But if you do hit an innocent person or someone else gets the gun and misuses it, I can see ammo figuring in for both criminal and civil trials.

One thing most "experts" advise is to avoid reloads. Personally, I think many of those super-duper bullets are designed primarily to expand - the maker's bank account.

IMHO, putting bullets in the right place is far more important than the kind of bullet. A FMJ in the solar plexus always beats a super bullet that misses.

Jim
 
There has been quite a lot of discussion on this with no real conclusion. However, it is more of a legal question so I'll move it to the Legal and Political forum...
 
I'm not an attorney (yet ;) )...but there is an unofficial concensus not to use "exotic" or hot reloads.
It all depends upon where you live, what the general gun "feeling" is, local political climate and host of unpredictable variables...such as how creative your opposing attorney may be, election year for the DA or judge, etc.
The horror of our society is that it has become profitable for somebody in any sort of tragedy or incident, even when not a principal. Its a crapshoot and your damned bad luck even when you are as pure as a baby

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Just make da** sure you kill the sob so he doesn't testify against you! "I am a victummmmmmmmmm, "I was trying to liberate the extra capital from this man because I was abused as a child"! Unload the "freakin" clip, reload and unload again. Then repeat these words "I was afraid for my life, I was afraid for my life........." If that fails, " I have no recollection of the incidemt in question, the trauma must have made me forget"! If you practice as much as you say, I'd offer the opinion that you won't have to worry about the "innocent bystander"! Fuggetaboutit!
 
P.S. the rounds you quoted are designed to be "safer" cause they don't travel as far. Shouldn't you use the best (and safest)available to protect your family and self?
 
My recommendation is to find out what your local/county/state law enforcement use as their issue projectial.

Check each of the rounds out of your CC weapon. If they function alright carry them. Kind of hard for a bottom dwelling Attorney to get that held against you.
 
Actually, frangibles are defendable for the "bystander safety" they offer.

The original Glasers were developed for the US Air Marshall's service as a round that wouldn't penetrate both skins of an airliner. Their effectiveness for that was mixed, but their tendency to fragment in a human target means you don't have a continuing lethal threat after you *successfully* hit your target with one.

In other words, if you're a good shot and you're dealing with a "bystander dense" situation (or might have cause to do so) there's an extra safety margin provided with these.

Note that there's an entire school of thought that says they don't penetrate deep enough. See also the main "Facklerite" web resource: http://www.firearmstactical.com

I think the milder frangible loads like Glaser Blue Label in 9mm might indeed be inadequate. The silver label Glasers with the larger shot has more promise in such cases.

I personally like two rounds of Glaser Silver in .38+P "first at bat", followed by three 158LSWHP+P wallopers behind those in my snubbie. If the problem isn't resolved in those first two shots, fine, let's go "old school" - by then, one hopes bystanders have hit the deck and we've got a little more leeway in that department.

By emphasising the legitimate "safety" part of the "safety slug" name, court survival becomes less of a problem.

Jim
 
When I took my CCW class, I was told to load my gun with a cartridge that has the words "self defensive" on the box. Most of these are fairly hot JHP's. If you wind up in court, the words "self defensive" on the box will be used as evidence that you carry specifically to defend yourself in case of attack. Loading whatever the local LEO's load is also a good idea.

You might want to find out what the local laws are concerning civil liability when you defend yourself against an attack. In my state, if the state determines that a shooting was justified, a civil suit cannot be filed against the person who did the shooting. Also, in a case of self defense, the shooter may not be liable for collateral damage. The laws in my state are written such that the courts would have a very tough time pinning negligence on someone who was fighting to save his life.
 
One potential advantage to using ammo from a major manufacturer, especialy if it is touted as " defensive ", is the possibility of getting help from them in the event of a civil suit. Easy for a civil suit to tap out your liability insurance coverage, if usin handloads you are the only pockets to pick. If usin factory loads, your carrier will try to pass the bill up stream to the manufacturer.

Practice a lot with handloads similar to the factory, carry factory defense stuff.

Sam I am, grn egs n ?
 
Jim March is abslutely correct. The frangibles are highly defensible. They are factory loaded and even the names 'Glaser Safety Slug' and 'MagSafe' work to your advantage provided that you live in a state that does not prohibit them. It probably wouldn't come up if there was a criminal trial, but could be an issue in the civil trial. It is easy to turn it into you being a good guy by thinking about the safety of innocent bystanders. I would NOT carry a round called the Annihilator-X which they later began calling the Devastator after I told them of potential problems of 'intent' of a shooting.
 
Thanks all for your responses. Guess I will stick with the same that I have been using 124-gr+p GS's for the MK9. I shoot with ball that prints close to that anyway.

No magic bullets.

Regards,
Hann
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top