What would the majority of ethical Hunters/sportsmen consider the limit on game taken with a blackpowder rifle(50-54 cal) using patched round balls. The game being White tail,Elk,Bison,Bear all species.The other choice being conicals on the same species.The given is shot placement ELMOUSMC
Limits on Blackpowder Hunting?
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After seeing SIX 54 caliber round balls completely blow through large mule deer and elk (including bone).... seeing a 450 grain conical (can't remember brand) explode on a scapula... and that our rifles were actually accurate as far as we can see clearly...
I only hunt with roundballs now. There is a bit of nostalgia to it, but mostly experience. I look for shots under 75 yards, but I take shots up to 150 yards. These are cheap, true caplocks (Traditions Hawken) - not any of the modern inlines or other cheater rifles.
It is simply amazing how effective roundballs can be. They can't tumble!
It has been over 10 years since I fired a conical bullet from my rifle. I can't even remember the weight that was most accurate. In the end, however, roundballs were my favorite, had better penetration, and less drop without reaching a maximum powder charge.
I no longer own my 'Hawken', but still shoot it a few times a year. (and hunt with it when I can.) I always trust the roundball, even though the current owner likes conicals.
Bison, bear... who knows...
I look forward to seeing what others have experienced.
Hmmm... you've got me jonesing for my own caplock again.
I only hunt with roundballs now. There is a bit of nostalgia to it, but mostly experience. I look for shots under 75 yards, but I take shots up to 150 yards. These are cheap, true caplocks (Traditions Hawken) - not any of the modern inlines or other cheater rifles.
It is simply amazing how effective roundballs can be. They can't tumble!
It has been over 10 years since I fired a conical bullet from my rifle. I can't even remember the weight that was most accurate. In the end, however, roundballs were my favorite, had better penetration, and less drop without reaching a maximum powder charge.
I no longer own my 'Hawken', but still shoot it a few times a year. (and hunt with it when I can.) I always trust the roundball, even though the current owner likes conicals.
Bison, bear... who knows...
I look forward to seeing what others have experienced.
Hmmm... you've got me jonesing for my own caplock again.
I think you should be able to hunt anything with PRBs if you want to. They kill much better than they ought to, better than most think they should. I plan to use them when I draw a ML elk tag, but I may very well upgrade to a .54 cal 1:60 barrel for that.
My boss bagged a 6 pt muley a couple of years ago with his a 400 grain or so conical bullet (.50 cal) and over 100 grains of powder, he actually had to shoot it 3 times to put it down for good. Surprising to me (and him) as he knows where to shoot them and didn't make a bad shot, you'd think that big heavy bullet would knock it off it's feet.
My boss bagged a 6 pt muley a couple of years ago with his a 400 grain or so conical bullet (.50 cal) and over 100 grains of powder, he actually had to shoot it 3 times to put it down for good. Surprising to me (and him) as he knows where to shoot them and didn't make a bad shot, you'd think that big heavy bullet would knock it off it's feet.
Round balls are good up to around100 yds. After that conicals are more accurate. If you have a 1:48 twist barrel you can use both effectively. If you have a slow twist like 1:66 conicals aren't going to be very good and with a fast twist like 1:28 round balls aren't going to be very good.
Distance
As any other firearm-distance shooting depends more on the shooter. However some MZ's are just not long distance rigs. I keep all my shots inside 100 yards for a patched round ball in my flintlock. I bought a Knight Long Range Hunter-50 caiber in May of 2007. I spent the entire summer shooting the rifle. I mounted a Leupold 4.5X14 with the B&C reticle on the rifle. I also shoot conicals. This rifle is deadly to 250 yards. I do not list this distance lightly. I took me all summer to work up to this distance. Along with 300-400 shots. I takes a lot of time and effort(and money) to get a MZ to do this, but it is possible.
As any other firearm-distance shooting depends more on the shooter. However some MZ's are just not long distance rigs. I keep all my shots inside 100 yards for a patched round ball in my flintlock. I bought a Knight Long Range Hunter-50 caiber in May of 2007. I spent the entire summer shooting the rifle. I mounted a Leupold 4.5X14 with the B&C reticle on the rifle. I also shoot conicals. This rifle is deadly to 250 yards. I do not list this distance lightly. I took me all summer to work up to this distance. Along with 300-400 shots. I takes a lot of time and effort(and money) to get a MZ to do this, but it is possible.
Hogghead: Great looking rifle I have done quite a bit of shooting with round balls and as you say they are most effective inside of 100 yds although I have made a few 1 shot kills out to about 150 yds on white tails.I got hold of a factory rep at CVA and found that the St Louis hawken I have is a 1 in 66 twist so it is basically a PRB shooter What are your feelings on a PRB for Black bear max load I have used is 100 grns pyrodex ELMOUSMC
Bullets
I do not mean to sound negative, but conicals are way too expensive to buy. Go out and buy an inexpensive mold and cast your own. Casting a MZ bullet is very easy. You can pick up a few pounds of WW from a tire store, a pot and a ladle. That is all you need. $30-40 puts you in business.
I have a RCBS adjustable Hotchkiss mold that I really like. But there is nothing wrong with a Lee REAL bullet mold to get started. Try it-trust me. You will really enjoy it, and it is fun to shot an animal with a bullet you made. Tom.
I do not mean to sound negative, but conicals are way too expensive to buy. Go out and buy an inexpensive mold and cast your own. Casting a MZ bullet is very easy. You can pick up a few pounds of WW from a tire store, a pot and a ladle. That is all you need. $30-40 puts you in business.
I have a RCBS adjustable Hotchkiss mold that I really like. But there is nothing wrong with a Lee REAL bullet mold to get started. Try it-trust me. You will really enjoy it, and it is fun to shot an animal with a bullet you made. Tom.
I've been casting for muzzleloaders for 39 years and it's been my experience that bullets made from clip on ww's are too hard for muzzleloaders and they're oversized as they don't shrink as much on cooling as pure lead does. However bullets made from stick on ww's are fine as they're almost pure lead. I think you're going to find accuracy suffers greatly with conicals out of a 1:66 twist. Hollow based mines or ballets may do ok but probably not great. I'd stick with round balls. All I can tell you is to try different loads at different ranges and find your guns limits with PRB's. 100 grs. should be plenty of power if it's accurate with it but keep in mind on big animals if it hits a heavy bone it's going to expand and not penetrate well so shot placement is going to be critical.
Bullets
Hawg I would agree with you about the WW sizing slightly larger. But I disagree with you about not using WW. I would only shoot pure lead in an antique firearm with inferior steel, but not in a modern MZ. Other than being slightly oversize(which I correct with a sizer), what is wrong with using WW?? When you say hard are you referring to expansion??
I also understand what you are saying about twist and "round ball VS. conical", but all I can say is try shooting the conicals. It never hurts to try. Some rifles wil shoot them, and some will not, but I would still try. Just do not try to push them real fast-try a 70-80 grain load of 3F BP, and a heavy conical. Just a suggestion. Tom.
Hawg I would agree with you about the WW sizing slightly larger. But I disagree with you about not using WW. I would only shoot pure lead in an antique firearm with inferior steel, but not in a modern MZ. Other than being slightly oversize(which I correct with a sizer), what is wrong with using WW?? When you say hard are you referring to expansion??
I also understand what you are saying about twist and "round ball VS. conical", but all I can say is try shooting the conicals. It never hurts to try. Some rifles wil shoot them, and some will not, but I would still try. Just do not try to push them real fast-try a 70-80 grain load of 3F BP, and a heavy conical. Just a suggestion. Tom.
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I never tried any 3F behind conicals, but I guess it should have been a possibility. I had a can on hand for a few months when I was testing them.
I always stuck with 2F for PRBs, after 3F didn't provide any noticeable improvement.
I always stuck with 2F for PRBs, after 3F didn't provide any noticeable improvement.
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Hogghead, it has more to do with the pressure curve of black powder and the bullet obturating (bumping up) upon firing to better seal the bore, not damaging the gun. Conicals cast from WW alloy can also be very difficult to load - by sizing them separately you're solving that problem, but with pure lead you won't have to, and I'd think they should be a bit more accurate due to the rifling engraving deeper on the bullet. Maybe not, YMMV.
I've had a harder time obtaining WW alloy lately, so I save all I can get for casting pistol bullets. I did manage to lay in a 100lb or so supply of pure lead (old roofing scrap) so I use that for my conicals and RBs.
I've had a harder time obtaining WW alloy lately, so I save all I can get for casting pistol bullets. I did manage to lay in a 100lb or so supply of pure lead (old roofing scrap) so I use that for my conicals and RBs.
As far as expansion goes harder lead would give much better penetration but IMHO you give up too much in accuracy in a muzzleloader plus being more difficult to load as conicals engrave the rifling upon loading. If they don't the hardness is not going to obturate enough to engage the rifling as Ifishsum pointed out. Also note I said clip on ww's are soft lead, almost pure and work great for muzzleloaders but you get the immediate expansion when they hit something hard. One more thing, Round balls made from hard lead are usually bore size or larger making using a patch close to if not impossible and if you size a round ball it's no longer a round ball
As to the original topic, I have no doubt that a cool hand with a good roundball gun can take even the big stuff cleanly. This means he must be willing to pass shots which may not reasonably be expected to result in an animal on the ground, pretty close to where it was hit. But that applies to hunting with any firearm, be it a heavy revolver or whatever.
The 'conventional wisdom' on BP rifle types, twist rates and projectile types is usually pretty sound but there are exceptions. We have an old Traditions Hawken that is 1:66 and really shouldn't shoot well with conicals. Evidently the rifle doesn't know this because with 90-100 grains of Pyrodex, it will hold 3 inches at 100 yards using a 385 grain Great Plains bullet.
I also have an Italian Santa Fe Hawken in .54, which has produced some 200 yard groups just over 6 inches, using Triple Seven, a Hornady ball and 'just the right patch'.
I realize that 3 MOA at either distance is no great shakes in the accuracy department, but I'm not complaining either considering 50+ year old eyes and traditional sights. I am certain that either gun will produce sure killing field shots at 100 yards, if conditions allow it. I have practiced a fast reload with the .54 using a naked (.530) ball, which is a snug fit in this gun. At 50 yards it still shoots to the sights and explodes a water jug with the same authority as patched ball.
Dangerous game, alone, BP weapons only? I just might try it, adding a pair of .54 plains pistols loaded heavy, a big knife, and an axe.
PS- nearly forgot...no I do not favor 'limits' or regulations on the subject matter.
The 'conventional wisdom' on BP rifle types, twist rates and projectile types is usually pretty sound but there are exceptions. We have an old Traditions Hawken that is 1:66 and really shouldn't shoot well with conicals. Evidently the rifle doesn't know this because with 90-100 grains of Pyrodex, it will hold 3 inches at 100 yards using a 385 grain Great Plains bullet.
I also have an Italian Santa Fe Hawken in .54, which has produced some 200 yard groups just over 6 inches, using Triple Seven, a Hornady ball and 'just the right patch'.
I realize that 3 MOA at either distance is no great shakes in the accuracy department, but I'm not complaining either considering 50+ year old eyes and traditional sights. I am certain that either gun will produce sure killing field shots at 100 yards, if conditions allow it. I have practiced a fast reload with the .54 using a naked (.530) ball, which is a snug fit in this gun. At 50 yards it still shoots to the sights and explodes a water jug with the same authority as patched ball.
Dangerous game, alone, BP weapons only? I just might try it, adding a pair of .54 plains pistols loaded heavy, a big knife, and an axe.
PS- nearly forgot...no I do not favor 'limits' or regulations on the subject matter.
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Conicals
Guys please do not label me as argumentative(but I do love a good argument). The problem is I am a handicapped fellow with a lot of time on his hands.
I have found that there are many variables involved in casting BP projectiles.
I have seen the same alloy drop .002 or .003 difference in the same mold from the same mfr. I have seen the same differnce when slugging the same rifle from the same mfr. And I have seen greater differences when slugging different rifles from different mfrs. So bore fit is really hit or miss between individual rifles and different conicals(even from a mold made by the same mfr). I know you guys have seen this before-I certainly have. All I am saying here is in order to get a proper fit for ringing out the most accuracy from a conical-then sizing is necessary?? Or I just think it is necessary?? Regardless of alloy??
I do not concern myself with expansion when the bullet is starting out a 1/2 inch. But I still find that we get some expansion with WW. Usually about 3/4 of an inch. I am satisfied with that??
As far as obturation is concerned. Well I am by no means an expert there. All I can say about that is I keep working at it until I get an accurate load. I am going to shoot some WW conicals into a sand pile and check that out.
Now to the point. I cast a 525 grain(WW) bullet for my flint lock. I push it with 80 grains of 3F. This load shoots under 3 inches at 100 yards. Sometimes a bit tighter if I do my job. This load is devastating on deer, and has killed one elk at 135 yards. I am sure pure lead would have done just as good of a job, but I get my WW for free!!
My friend is on his way over right now, and I have about 400 pounds of WW to smelt. Time to cast some more 44 caliber bullets. Tom.
Guys please do not label me as argumentative(but I do love a good argument). The problem is I am a handicapped fellow with a lot of time on his hands.
I have found that there are many variables involved in casting BP projectiles.
I have seen the same alloy drop .002 or .003 difference in the same mold from the same mfr. I have seen the same differnce when slugging the same rifle from the same mfr. And I have seen greater differences when slugging different rifles from different mfrs. So bore fit is really hit or miss between individual rifles and different conicals(even from a mold made by the same mfr). I know you guys have seen this before-I certainly have. All I am saying here is in order to get a proper fit for ringing out the most accuracy from a conical-then sizing is necessary?? Or I just think it is necessary?? Regardless of alloy??
I do not concern myself with expansion when the bullet is starting out a 1/2 inch. But I still find that we get some expansion with WW. Usually about 3/4 of an inch. I am satisfied with that??
As far as obturation is concerned. Well I am by no means an expert there. All I can say about that is I keep working at it until I get an accurate load. I am going to shoot some WW conicals into a sand pile and check that out.
Now to the point. I cast a 525 grain(WW) bullet for my flint lock. I push it with 80 grains of 3F. This load shoots under 3 inches at 100 yards. Sometimes a bit tighter if I do my job. This load is devastating on deer, and has killed one elk at 135 yards. I am sure pure lead would have done just as good of a job, but I get my WW for free!!
My friend is on his way over right now, and I have about 400 pounds of WW to smelt. Time to cast some more 44 caliber bullets. Tom.
I don't sweat 'expansion' either when punching holes of this size and 3-4 inches at 100 yards is plenty accurate when you don't set out to take game shots beyond that.
About the only thing I'd turn a ball loose on at 200 yards would be a coyote, and when it comes to killing I don't put game and varmints in the same category.
About the only thing I'd turn a ball loose on at 200 yards would be a coyote, and when it comes to killing I don't put game and varmints in the same category.