Light .38 Loads

3

3006loader

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I recently purchased a Blued S&W Model 19-3 from a gun show. I personally think it's the most beautiful classic looking revolver that S&W has ever made. That being said, I want it to last for the rest of my life. But I also want to shoot it a lot. So in order to not wear it down I need some light loads to feed it.

More specifically does anyone have any loads for 125gr plated flat nose bullets (already bought a lot of them) out of a 4" barrel? I am looking for something very weak, in the 750-850 fps range.

Also I wanted to get your guys' input on reduced/light loads like this. I heard they can be dangerous, which is why I'm being cautious and making this thread. Specifically I have heard bad things about Trail Boss, that it leads to very high pressure spikes, which could be dangerous (and would also wear out my gun faster, right?).

Are these pressure spikes negligible considering the gun only has a 4" barrel? Do environmental temperatures make these pressure spikes higher or lower? What about position of the powder in the cartridge while the primer is struck? Any other specifics on how to avoid excessive pressure? Is there such thing as using too little powder as long as its enough to make the bullet exit the barrel?

Thanks all in advance.
 
There is a lot of data for cowboy action shooters that is right in that range. The dangers are two:

Double charges since there is so much empty space in the case that it's hard to see.

Sticking a bullet in the barrel because you are trying to load too light.

Be careful and you'll be OK.
 
Find ANY basic 38spl load and shoot away, no matter what bullet weight you have and go enjoy it. I have a 19-3 2-1/2" RB and it likes my standard 158LSWC load I have reloaded for for 35+ years with zero issues (same for my 66-2, M&P pre-10, etc.
 
Biggest danger with plated bullets is trying to load them at lead bullet starting levels, where they may not exit the barrel. If shooting the lightest loads with the least amount of wear and tear was you goal, I think that bullet choice was a mistake.

As griz mentioned, cowboy data is available, but I don't know how much of it applies to plated bullets. I would have suggested soft lead bullets, and a traditional wadcutter or SWC for which there is enough load data will fill a catalogue.
 
My favorite cowboy load is 2.8g 700x under a 125g TCFP polymer coated soft lead (12 brinel hardness) bullet. Don't know how that would work with plated bullets, which would have more friction down the barrel. So, if it were me, I'd up the load to a published starting load and then work down. Do you have a chronograph?

I agree, for your purpose, you picked the wrong bullet.
 
My Dad got a S&W M-10 5" "New York City model" back when I was in Jr High (in the dark ages when dinosaurs roamed the earth)

He and I used to go out shooting on weekends and I loaded the ammo. It was common for us to go through 2/3 of a 30 cal ammo can (those made for the 1919 Machine gun) of ammo in a day. We did that for the years I was in Jr high and High school. He shot the gun for years when I was gone in the Marine corps. He and I would shoot a lot when i would come home on leave.

Later in my late 40s he got cancer and knew he was dying. He gave me the M-10. I have been shooting it ever since. I use it for demonstrations in the classes I teach, and I have also lent it to many students to use in those classes.
I do not think I can count the number of rounds that have been fired through it. It was used when my dad got it but in 100% condition, and that was back in the 60s. I am still shooting it today. It has at least 50 years of use behind it, and it is NOT a safe queen.

Nearly all rounds fired were 158 grain cast SWCs, 50%/50% Alox Bees wax lube, Mixed brass with 3.6 gr of Red Dot. This load out of that old gun shoots a ragged hole at 25 yards.

The M-10 is a 38 Special.

Your M-19 is a 357 magnum so it is at least as strong in the frame and innards, and stronger in it's cylinder.

If that many rounds have not hurt a Model 10, I doubt you'd have any troubles at all with a M19. Might be worth a try.
 
I recently purchased a Blued S&W Model 19-3 from a gun show. I personally think it's the most beautiful classic looking revolver that S&W has ever made. That being said, I want it to last for the rest of my life. But I also want to shoot it a lot. So in order to not wear it down I need some light loads to feed it.

More specifically does anyone have any loads for 125gr plated flat nose bullets (already bought a lot of them) out of a 4" barrel? I am looking for something very weak, in the 750-850 fps range.
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I have shot about 5,000 or more rounds, since May, of 2.8 grains of Bullseye onder Lee cast 121 (actual weight), 125 grain bullets in my K38. I have also shot several hundred of the same bullet with 3.2 grains of Titegroup. I have noted slight inconsistencies in the report and recoil of such loads, leading me to believe that there is somewhat of inconsistent buring us such light loads...however, my interests are in double-action shooting with very light loads and I am not concerned about minor differences in pressure...as long as the bullet exits the barrel (six inch), and at this point with many thousands or such rounds, there has not been a single instance of a bullet failing to exit. I tried 3.0 of Bullseye and it seemed (however, I did not chronograph to be sure) to make the report and recoil more uniform. But since I am most interested in the minimum load to produce the least recoil, I went back to 2.8 of Bullseye.

Also I wanted to get your guys' input on reduced/light loads like this. I heard they can be dangerous, which is why I'm being cautious and making this thread. Specifically I have heard bad things about Trail Boss, that it leads to very high pressure spikes, which could be dangerous (and would also wear out my gun faster, right?).
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Many years ago when the standard target load was 2.7 grains of Bullseye under 148 grain swaged hollow-base wadcutters, there were claims of "detonation" blowing up the guns. However, try as they might, ballisticians could never replicate those "blow-ups" in the lab and most shooters went back to using those loads.

Are these pressure spikes negligible considering the gun only has a 4" barrel? Do environmental temperatures make these pressure spikes higher or lower? What about position of the powder in the cartridge while the primer is struck? Any other specifics on how to avoid excessive pressure? Is there such thing as using too little powder as long as it's enough to make the bullet exit the barrel?
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There is such a thing, but squib loads are almost always operator error in that a case only had a primer, no powder at all.

My advice to you, if you want a minimum load with the 125 grain bullets, use 3.0 of Bullseye (for consistency), and worry no more.
 
Starting loads for lead bullets might stick in the barrel. The key word is "might". Watch out for anything unusual and verify the impact of each shoot. If you aren't sure if the bullet made it out - unload the gun, double check to make sure it's unloaded, and then check the barrel for any obstruction.

Any mid-range load for lead should work for a light load with a plated bullet and not have to worry about sticking a bullet. Next time buy lead bullets coated bullets. They have less friction and will make it out of the barrel with less pressure

Realistically any load moving at 750-850 FPS shouldn't have to worry about a stuck bullet. Once you get down around the 600 FPS realm is where you want to start watching for stuck bullet.

Any reloading manual will have loads for 38 special 125 grain bullets. Pressure spikes happen in the chamber/cylinder. The amount barrel is irrelevant. Look at the picture of any blown up revolver - the cylinder bursts.
 
Normally I don't recommend plated bullets for new reloaders, there are always many questions; "How much powder do I use, I can't find loads in my Lee Manual", and "how do I crimp plated bullets for my revolver". The "formula" often given is a max. load warning; "mid jacketed velocity".

I tried about 1,000 plated bullets in a few of my handguns, but was not impressed, and if I want faster loads I'll just go with jacketed, but I normally use my cast bullets in 95% of my loads, and I worked out barrel leading long ago. I began loading all 1,000 with starting loads for lead bullets and went up a bit, no stuck bullets (squibs)...

If I were wanting to keep loads light for a "classic" revolver, I'd go with target loads with a 148 gr. DEWC over a light load of Bullseye (or a similar powder). Easy on the gun, easy on the shooter and extremely accurate...
 
Any cast 125 grain .38 Special load data will be fine. Lots of such data on Hodgdon's site. The 750-850 fps range is with Trail Boss. No crimping is required for light loads.
Only ever load 148 grain WC's with Bullseye myself. Shot a 4" M19 with 'em for eons. Even though it never did fit my hand quite right.
Suggest you load 'em in .357 cases to make the lube gunk ring that builds up in the cylinders not happen. The lube gunk ring isn't a big deal, but it has to come out if you want to shoot .357's after .38's in .38 brass. Comes right out with a .45 calibre brush. Using .357 cases makes it go away altogether.
 
Low Recoil Powder Puff load
I use it for beginners
( tested in 2, 4, 5 and 6 inch barrel 38 SPL and
2, 5 and 6 inch barrel 357 )

38 SPL
Rem. 102gr HP ( 380 bullet )
Rem. case
5.2gr Win. 231
CCI # 500 primer
COAL 1.450

( 38 SPL is 357, 380 is 356 they work fine )
( belled case with 380 bell die )
( Taper crimp with 380 crimp die )
 
Most plated bullet makers tell you to use lead data. About 5 grains of BE-86 should suit your 125 grain bullets fine, according to Alliant's load data pages. Bullseye and Red Dot are also very good for .38 special loads. I try to load them at about 800 to 850 fps and have not had any squibs or issues. Pistol powders are getting to be a lot more available these days, so you should have choices. Load 'em, shoot 'em and see what your gun likes. Have fun!
 
I recently purchased a Blued S&W Model 19-3 from a gun show. I personally think it's the most beautiful classic looking revolver that S&W has ever made.
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Aren't they though? I don't have a Model 19. Wish I did. The most similar gun I own is a Model 67 (a 38 Special) purchased new in March 2014. I bought it specifically for competition and just-for-fun target shooting. It has no defense/carry duties. It's just a gun I intend to shoot a lot. And I mean a lot - a lot. I have over 14,000 rounds through it now and it's just getting broke in. Unless I live to be 254 years old, the gun is going to long past outlive me.

That being said, I want it to last for the rest of my life. But I also want to shoot it a lot. So in order to not wear it down I need some light loads to feed it.
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I understand your concern. But as many have already stated, you need not lose any sleep over this. Gun wear is a funny thing. At all but the highest levels, it's virtually nil. As long as you're shooting 38 Specials - even +P's - you're precious Model 19 is going to outlive you (assuming it's in good shape to begin with). That part is a no-brainer. It's gets a little more complicated if you're shooting 357 Magnum rounds though it. Most will be no problem either. But some could be of concern. The general line of thinking is to stay away from light bullets packed with slow powder. Just don't do that and you'll be fine.

More specifically does anyone have any loads for 125gr plated flat nose bullets (already bought a lot of them) out of a 4" barrel? I am looking for something very weak, in the 750-850 fps range.
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I do load a 125gn plated (X-treme) plated flat point. But not many. The only load I chronographed is 5.7gn of Unique (38 Special) that ran at 997 f/s through my 4" bbl M67. Nice snappy little round. Now this is quite a bit stronger than you wanted, but let me assure you, your M19 could shoot these pretty regularly for a century or two. If you want to bring the velocity down, I don't recommend Unique. I'd move to a faster powder like TiteGroup or something similar.

Also I wanted to get your guys' input on reduced/light loads like this. I heard they can be dangerous, which is why I'm being cautious and making this thread.
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I have heard of such a thing with rifle ammo, but I only load for pistol. In 32 years of loading 38/357, I've never run into such a problem. What you do want to be concerned with is loading your plated bullets with low-end lead data - that could cause a stuck bullet. Plated bullets have more friction with the barrel than lead. That, coupled with the barrel/cylinder gap bleeding off precious gas, can lead to a condition where there just isn't enough poop to get the plated bullet to exit the barrel. So when someone tells you to use lead data to load these plated rounds, ignore them. Start with jacketed data. If they're still going too fast, then do a load work-down with caution - checking for bullet impact and gun recoil. I've worked down plated 38 Specials down below 700 f/s, so it should be a problem. But caution should be exercised just the same.

Specifically I have heard bad things about Trail Boss, that it leads to very high pressure spikes, which could be dangerous
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I haven't heard such a thing. But I don't load with Trail Boss either.

(and would also wear out my gun faster, right?).
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With a pressure spike condition, barrel wear isn't the concern. Catastrophic gun failure is.

Are these pressure spikes negligible considering the gun only has a 4" barrel?
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Barrel length has no bearing on it. Peak pressure occurs when the bullet is still in the cylinder.

Is there such thing as using too little powder as long as its enough to make the bullet exit the barrel?
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Yes. Especially when loading plated bullets for a revolver and using low-end lead data. (See above)

What about position of the powder in the cartridge while the primer is struck?
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It is a small issue with 38 Special target level loads. I have chronograph proof that by first tilting the gun back (to put the powder against the primer), a slightly higher average velocity is consistently achieved. This is way beyond the anecdotal - it's a real thing. A safety issue? Never heard of such a thing though.

Any other specifics on how to avoid excessive pressure?
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Load safe. The details go way beyond the scope of this post. Use reliable published data and good load habits, and you'll be fine.
 
Load data

More specifically does anyone have any loads for 125gr plated flat nose bullets (already bought a lot of them) out of a 4" barrel? I am looking for something very weak, in the 750-850 fps range.
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I did more digging and found another 125gn round for 38 Special that I loaded - 4.6 grains of TiteGroup. Chronographed at 925 f/s through my 4". Now that's still a little strong per your request; but the good thing about this loading - unlike my example of Unique in my previous post - is that you can turn this one down. TiteGroup could definitely be turned down to - say - the 4.0 grain range, and it'll probably do exactly what you want.

TiteGroup is an excellent propellant for basic 38 Special range loads with plated bullets. Bullseye, W231/HP-38, Red Dot, 700X are other examples of propellants that would probably be well suited for your purpose also.
 
To post #14... Thanks for taking so much time and effort to answer all my questions. There's a lot of really good info in your post.

I am going to try to use some 3.5-4.5gr fast burning powder loads. More specifics to come. I will let you all know exactly how it turns out when my new reloading equipment and chronograph arrives.
 
FWIW; I pay no attention to what "they" say or any load data from any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, or gun shop guru. I have quite successfully used data from my reloading manuals for many years with no KABOOMS! or squibs...

I have used starting loads right out of a book (manual) for 30 years and I can't say I've had any bullets stick in a barrel with any kind/type of bullet. I tried plated bullets with starting loads for lead bullets and my results were so-so, and I just decided not to try any more...
 
With the usual caveats that you have to work up loads in your own gun, I had good results with 4.6 gr HP-38 under an X-treme 125 gr PFP bullet in my Taurus Model 66 Stainless with a 4" barrel.

I didn't chrony that load, but I did chrony 4.9 gr at 770 fps. Both were good but the lighter load was slightly more accurate in my gun.

It is just my experience but I don't share the fear of sticking a bullet in the barrel with plated bullets being mentioned as long as published minimum loads for lead bullets are used (hollow based wad cutters excepted).
 
I would also caution against very light loads in 38 SPL because of the danger of squibs - I say this from personal experience.

Some of the "starting" loads for 38 SPL (such as the ones in Lyman 49th) are VERY light ... so much so that I started checking the barrel unless I got positive feedback (hole in target) that the round had exited -- a bit disconcerting to hear more "pop" than "bang". If you start at the bottom of the scale, it's a good idea to be extra sure you're throwing consistent loads: 0.2 gr under in the middle of the range may not be a problem, but at the low end you could wind up in squib territory.

I'll echo what the other posters have said -- just use normal loads/ammo. I have a Model 10 that's older than (middle-aged) me and it's running great after countless thousands of rounds of all types.
 
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