Light 357 load

1

1972RedNeck

New member
I picked up several hundred 110 grain Hornady XTP for my 357 for dirt cheap. I never shoot anything that light from my 357 as I don't want any flame cutting.

Can I load them light enough in 357 brass (don't have any 38 special brass) to not get any flame cutting? My Lyman book says 7.4 grains (suggested starting) of Unique will be under 1100 fps - is this a light enough load to not flame cut? How much lower can I go with unique? This will just be for practice/plinking rounds.

I only have magnum pistol primers as well and haven't been able to find regular small pistol primers - will they work if I drop a couple tenths of a grain of powder out to make up for the hotter primer?

Will any of this work or should I just give the 110 grain bullets to someone else and stick with my full house 158 grains?
 
Just out of curiosity, what gun are you worried about flame cutting??

Flame cutting the topstrap is the result of burning large amounts of powder at high pressures. Typically cases full of slow burning powder in magnum loads.

Flame cutting can create a groove (worst case) in the topstrap, but I have never seen or heard of one ever being deep enough to affect the strength of the frame. And, its is a self limiting process.

The Unique load you are considering should not be a problem at all. The gun also makes a difference. Small, medium or large frames measure slightly differently from the edge of the bore to the topstrap and this can be a factor, but the biggest one is the ammo. HOT loaded 125gr rounds got the rep for being the worst "flame cutters". (and the factory 125gr load is hotter than the 110s,)

I seriously doubt 110s over 7.4gr Unique will be an issue.
 
Smith and Wesson 627 five inch barrel. I realize the minor flame cutting that might happen wouldn't harm it at all - I just want the top strap to stay nice and pretty.
 
74288-C6-E-1-B5-D-477-B-B0-C6-1-EDAE9-C5-CD78.jpg


It’s important enough for S&W to add this little gas shield in the 340. That said, the 340 is a scandium frame.
 
I hypothesise your gun will be fine and any excessive wear will be kept to a minimum, the conditions are not correct to replicate the flame cutting/barrel face erosion problem. The flame cutting is because twenty two grains of h110 getting lit off pushing a 110 grain bullet "hi-speed screamer".
 
You can look up .38 special loads and use those loads in your .357 cases with the COL appropriate for .357 cases. That is, if there is a crimp groove, you can use it.

Because the extra 1/8 inch or so gives more case volume and a little extra case volume reduces peak pressure. And people have been doing this since the 1930s and many people have tested the practice.

As you reduce power, there are some issues to be aware of:
1. Don't make a load so light that a bullet sticks in the barrel.
2. Bullets are designed to obdurate- the back end expands when smacked by hot expanding gasses, sealing the bullet into the gooves of the barrel. If not smacked hard enough, hot gas will escape around the bullet which leads to loss of accuracy, velocity, and eventual leading or copper fouling.
3. Cast bullets come in several levels of hardness. Antimony makes them hard, but is expensive. Soft lead bullets can be damaged in the manufacturing process and damaged goods is expensive. In general, the "big guy" bullet casters err on the side of "too hard, ya gotta bang em!" while extruded bullets are "sometimes too soft, don't push em too hard!" There are "little guy" bullet casters online that offer cast bullets at several hardnesses based on your intended use and I like places like that. I also use extruded lead bullets for my .44 Magnum soft loads where I use .44 Special target load data.
4. Flame cutting- what 44 AMP said. If you've ever seen or shot .357 Maximum, you know what a big load is. Look up guys shooting .357 Max after dark on youtube for a laugh. Specifically, it's now generally thought that H110 is 'hotter' than Lil' Gun, at least in the shotgun reloading world, as H110 burns holes in wads sooner than Lil' Gun. Lil' Gun is king there for heavy loads in several gauges.
5. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Don't do that!". Why do you want to use 110 grain XTPs, feeling that they may be good when pushed hard in your gun? 140 to 150 grains is a time tested range.

Specifics- I don't know what primer you're using but Lyman says 4 grains Unique will send a 125 XTP at 498 fps and that would worry me as too slow and 6 grains is 16,700 CUP pressure which your .357 can eat like chips all day.

6. Never give bullets away. Someday you'll regret not having them. At worst, trade them with someone in your club for something they don't want but you need.

I would suggest picking up some good cast bullets in the 140-160 grain range designed for your purpose... I don't know what gun you have, if you want wadcutters, those are fun.

Magnum Primers? Don't worry about it. In this time of scarce components we use what we can get. You've loaded DOWN... so the extra kick of the primer will result in extra pressure for little achieved velocity but you're so far below .357 pressures it doesn't matter.

Magnum primers for this purpose is like putting Z rated (200 mph top speed) tires on a Toyota Corolla. It won't hurt the car at all, it just costs a bit more per shot.
 
Thank you for the input. As to question number 5 of "why", the 110 gr xtps were less than a penny per bullet and I couldn't say no...
 
Don't let people discourage you from using 110 grain bullets. They are superbly accurate in my S&W, though they are shot at 38 Special speeds.
 
Because the extra 1/8 inch or so gives more case volume and a little extra case volume reduces peak pressure.
Click to expand...

The principle is correct (larger space, same gas volume = lower pressure) but you've got your numbers slightly wrong. In the case of .357Mag and .38 Special, its easy to do.

We hear often about the fact that the .357 case is 0.135" (0.01" over 1/8 inch) than the .38 Special. Absolutely true, just look at the case specs.

SO, people generally automatically assume there is that much difference in the internal space in the case, and that's not true. I can already hear people says "wait, WHAT?? That can't be, if its that much longer on the outside, there has to be that much difference on the inside!...right??

The answer to that is yes...and no. There is a small difference between the internal space in the rounds, but its not 0.135" its considerably less than that, and can be less than 1/3 of that.

Look at the max loaded length specs.
.357 is 1.590"
.38 SPL is 1.550"

That is a difference of 0.04". Not 0.135". Using the same bullet, loaded to max length in both cases the difference in the internal space is 0.04", less than 1/3 of the 0.135" difference in the case lengths. I'm not saying the difference is irrelevant, I'm just saying the difference is not the 0.135" people assume it to be.

Remember that the heavy loads that make the .357 what it is were developed using .38 Special brass. There IS enough room in .38 Special brass to hold the powder needed for .357 pressures. For commercial production, (.357 began in 1935) the case was made longer, not to hold more powder, but to keep the .357 pressure out of .38 Special GUNS.

Next point, obturation. The sealing of the bullet to the bore. True the "smack" of pressure on the base of the bullet upsetting it (making it "flatten out slightly, getting larger so it seals better) is a factor. A bigger factor with lead bullets than with jacketed bullets. The biggest factor is not base upset, but the fit between the size of the bullet diameter and the size of the bore.

Since the OP is asking about Hornady XTP 110gr bullets, and lighter loads, information about heavy loads and about lead bullets isn't relevant to his question.

Hornady XTP bullets are designed to give good expansion over a fairly wide velocity range. CALL Hornady and ask them the upper and lower limits for reliable expansion. I would expect reasonable performance from the 1100fps load you're looking at using.

IF you're not shooting lots of hot magnum loads using 2400, H110 / W296 powders I don't think flame cutting will be a concern.

The flame cutting is because twenty two grains of h110 getting lit off pushing a 110 grain bullet "hi-speed screamer".
Click to expand...

What .357 Magnum case are you able to get 22 grains of H110 (or any powder) into??? and HOW did you manage to do that??? :rolleyes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah, the little kid in me would like to try a 22 grains of H110 (compressed) behind a 125 grain bullet (Lyman 50th load) from a snub nose revolver at night just to see the fire ball...

Probably would have already tried it if it wasn't for the possibility of flame cutting.
 
You don't have to wait until night time, with H110 compressed beneath 110 grain jacketed hollow point bullets the fire ball is visible at high noon on the brightest day in the sun from a magnum j frame snub[emoji3]
 
Regular old 357 Magnum. Hodgdon and Lyman do it.
Click to expand...

Apologies, for some reason my mind was stuck at the 15gr level max for 158gr slugs and forgot that I've gone past 19 loading 125s. My daughter would call it a "senior moment" :rolleyes:

Yeah, the little kid in me would like to try a 22 grains of H110 (compressed) behind a 125 grain bullet (Lyman 50th load) from a snub nose revolver at night just to see the fire ball...
Click to expand...

Other than the fireball you won't like it. First off, the recoil will HURT!! And then, there the whole issue of getting the fired case out of the gun.

I've never done 22gr of H110 in a .357 but I have done 19.5gr of 2400 under a 125gr JHP. Fired from a 6" S&W model 19, recoil was vicious and fired cases had to be driven out of the cylinder using a rod and small hammer. Avg MV was 1620fps.

Oddly enough, same ammo fired from a 6" S&W model 28 clocked 1670fps and cases ejected with finger pressure, though recoil was ..STOUT :D. I really wouldn't want to shoot that from ANY snub nose small frame gun. I don't think you'd enjoy it, either...

On the other hand, that load was a pussycat fired from a Desert Eagle. HUGE BLAST, very little felt recoil, flawless function and an MV of 1720fps. :D

Sometimes, the size of your gun really does matter! ;)
 
The fire ball gets bigger and muzzle blast gets louder after you install black Hogue Bantam grips on the j frame snub[emoji1787] I swear!

The grips help with speed loaders practice! HKS36-A?? I'll check tomorrow.
 
Whether it matters for your purposes, a light loaded 110 gn bullet and a full house 158 gn bullet may have substantially differing poi's at 25 yds. An likely quite noticeable at 10 yds.
 
For light , non- flame cutting loads in 357 Magnum with 110 gr. Hornady XTP , use 357 magnum brass and the Magnum Primers that you have ... it will work just fine ... and try :

5.2 grs. Unique @ 850 fps
5.5 grs. Unique @ 900 fps
5.7 grs. Unique @ 950 fps
6.0 grs. Unique @ 1000 fps

My Ruger Blackhawk seems to favor the 5.7 grs Unique load . These loads have shown no signs of cutting ... I've lost count of how many were fired over the years .
Lee Jurras and his 110 gr. Super Vel bullets started it all ... we shot many ... but the 5.7 grains Unique load at 950 fps is a good light 357 load .
Gary
 
I used to shoot thousands of rounds of 110 grain or 115 grain loads in my Smith Model 19. Typically propelled by either W296 or Hercules 2400 powder. After many thousands of such rounds the nickel plating was worn away on the topstrap. I had zero cutting of the top strap. That seems to be a popular internet myth.
 
44 AMP said:
Apologies, for some reason my mind was stuck at the 15gr level max for 158gr slugs and forgot that I've gone past 19 loading 125s. My daughter would call it a "senior moment" :rolleyes:



Other than the fireball you won't like it. First off, the recoil will HURT!! And then, there the whole issue of getting the fired case out of the gun.

I've never done 22gr of H110 in a .357 but I have done 19.5gr of 2400 under a 125gr JHP. Fired from a 6" S&W model 19, recoil was vicious and fired cases had to be driven out of the cylinder using a rod and small hammer. Avg MV was 1620fps.

Oddly enough, same ammo fired from a 6" S&W model 28 clocked 1670fps and cases ejected with finger pressure, though recoil was ..STOUT :D. I really wouldn't want to shoot that from ANY snub nose small frame gun. I don't think you'd enjoy it, either...

On the other hand, that load was a pussycat fired from a Desert Eagle. HUGE BLAST, very little felt recoil, flawless function and an MV of 1720fps. :D

Sometimes, the size of your gun really does matter! ;)
Click to expand...
21 grains was max I used with H110 125grainers . I shot it out of my S&W 586 and its a heavy gun. Recoil wasnt bad but not something I would shoot very often. I put extra firm crimp for sure.

Funny I bought a 357 magnum revolver and 95% of the ammo I shoot is 38spl go figure
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top