Lever actions crush cartridges ????

U

u2glock

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Lever actions crush cartridges ????

About 15 years ago my mother bought me my first firearm after completing a hunter safety course. The rifle was a Marlin 336cs in 30-30. I noticed, even with different brands of factory ammunition, that when the tubular magazine was loaded and then unloaded by cycling the action, the bullets get slightly pushed down into the shell casing. This could clearly be seen by comparing the position of the canalure (the little ring on the bullet—I think that is what it is called at least) with rounds that had not been cycled through the action. Some cartridges had the bullet pushed in a considerable amount if they were left in the magazine for an extended period of time. I don’t think that it was caused by the chambering of the round, as I was working the action very slowly to unload the tubular magazine. It concerned me back then because I was under the impression that seating the bullet too deep could cause overpressure and maybe catastrophic failure. I returned the rifle to Marlin and got it back and it did the same thing. I figured that maybe the spring was too tight and I got rid of the rifle. I never bought a lever action since.

Now recently, 15 years later, I was at the range and saw a guy with a newer 336cs in 30-30. I told him that was my first firearm and such and such, and I told him about it crushing shells. So we did a little experiment. We loaded his magazine and unloaded it and sure enough the bullets were pushed down into the casing. I have wanted to buy a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70, but hesitated when I remembered my earlier experience Has anyone else experienced this, I tried searching the archives of this site but could not find anything. Is it dangerous? I figure that it couldn’t be good for accuracy.. Thanks in advance.
 
When using a rifle with a tubular magazine,it's very important to use a tight crimp to prevent the problem you describe. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die to put a good roll crimp on my lever gun ammo. Also,it's recommended that only flatpoint bullets be used in tubular magazines to prevent detonations from the point of a bullet striking the primer of the round in front of it. Granted,this as a rare occurence,but I have seen rifles destroyed because of this phenomenon.

Bill
 
u2glock:

Deep seating of bullets in the magazine is a real potential threat, especially when using a heavy recoiling rifle. I am surprised to hear that you experienced deep seating from simply chambering the rounds. Obviously you needed much more case tension and/or a proper crimp. With the 45-70 this is even a greater concern, as the recoil of the gun with big loads is enough to seat the bullets deeper into the case. In fact, the recoil forces of big 45-70 loads are pretty stout, so a guy definitely wants to make sure that his ammo has good neck tension and a proper crimp. Unfortunately, not all sizing dies are the same, in fact, I have tried some Redding 45-70 sizing dies that hardly sized the case at all. Tight case tention on the sides of the bullet is very important. Although it is commonly stated that a roll crimp is required for proper holding of the bullet with lever-action 45-70s, it is not necessary if the case is properly sized and the case is properly taper crimped into the sides of the bullet (cast bullet). However, a roll crimp also works fine provided the bullet has an adequate crimp groove.

Our commercial 45-70 loads generate considerable recoil, yet due to the way we set our cartridges up, we do not roll crimp. However, one MUST be certain that his cartridges will resist the forces of recoil, as they will try to deep seat the bullets in the magazine. A good test for adequate bullet tension is to simply test your production methods by loading the magazine of your lever-gun and then firing one round. Then lever another round into the chamber and fire it. Then put a round into the magazine, replacing the one you just levered into the chamber. Then fire the gun. Then, again, eject the fired case and lever another round into the chamber. After firing it, put another round into the magazine and then lever it into the chamber and fire it. Repeat that until you have fired at least a dozen rounds. By doing this, you will keep the first rounds placed into the magazine in the tube during this exercise, and they will consequently be subjected to a dozen recoil pulses. Then remove those rounds and check them for deep seating. If they have not moved further into the case, you can be pretty sure that your assembly methods will protect against recoil induced deep seating. For further information regarding safety concerns with 45-70 ammo, check out our Q&A page on our website.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Garrett,

Thanks for responding. However, you both seem to be placing emphasis on hand loaded ammunition. My experience, from 15 years ago and from a few days ago was with FACTORY ammunition. I do not hand load ammunition. Also, these bullet setbacks were occurring just as a result of magazine spring tension with no rounds even being fired. I would think that manufactures like Remington and Winchester would put a strong enough crimp on their commercial 30-30 rounds as most of them will be fired from lever action rifles with tubular magazines. But it appears as if they are not doing this. What I saw on the range a few days ago was real and the setback made the cannalure almost disappear after just one loading. This was the same situation that I encountered 15 years ago. I can’t believe that others with these rifles have not noticed this. I can’t be the only one.

Mr. Garrett, I have read many of your old posts on this forum regarding the 45-70 and it has renewed my interest in the Marlin Guide Gun again. I did not realize that such hot loads were available for the 45-70. Have you ever loaded the magazine, to full capacity, of an unmodified new Marlin Guide gun with your ammo and noticed any bullet setback? If so, what about leaving it loaded for several days?

Also, after consulting with a friend who has a lot more hunting experience than I do, I agree with your logic regarding hard, heavy, flat-nosed, bullets moving at lower velocities for dangerous game at close range If I do buy a Guide Gun, I think that your loads would be my choice for the ultimate brush rifle. Although, I would use it to primarily hunt white tail dear, there are many black bears where I hunt and, even though unlikely, I like knowing that I have enough gun to take one down should it charge.

I wish that Marlin would offer a no-frills version of the 1895G made of stainless steel with a black matte finish or carbon steel treated with Black T, synthetic stock, and ghost ring (peep) sights as standard features. While this may not appeal to lever action purists, I appreciate the utility of a rifle more than its appearance. I hate taking a new rifle out with a lovely wood stock and then getting the inevitable scratches and dings that occur in the field. I would rather the rifle just start out “ugly” with the plastic or kevlar stock.

Thanks and take care.
 
u2glock:

The procedure I described regarding checking for proper assembly of 45-70 ammo is the same one we use for our high performance factory loads. In all candor, I have never seen a 45-70 load deep seat simply from loading the magazine to full capacity. However, I have seen some ammunition products deep seat under recoil, something definitely to be avoided! However, with proper assembly, deep seating never occurs.

It will be a while, at best, before we see a stainless 45-70 lever-gun. The guys at Marlin had a tough time getting the okay from the bean counters so they could offer a stainless 30-30. It's a great idea, there obviously is no good to be had from a gun that rusts! A synthetic stock would also be nice, but there a lot of guys that object, for reasons I don't understand, to non-traditional appearance. Pass your interest in a modernized 45-70 to the guys at Marlin, it will help the forward-thinkers to make their case.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
u2. I have a Winchester rifle with a 26 inch barrel. I have never noticed what you experienced with factory cartridges. (I'm going to have to load it up and see if this happens. As I have been shooting 30-30's for better than 40 years, I have to wonder.
I've never measured the length of the cannelure, but I would guess it is about 1/32 of an inch or there abouts. I would also imagine, that as long as the bullets moved no deeper than the foreward edge of the cannelure, that there would be no problem. I reload and feed 6 30-30s, 5 tube magazines and one bolt action rifle. I don't even bother to crimp them, and I've had no problems whatsoever. Of course, I use cast lead bullets sized to .310 inch, so the fit is tighter than a jacketed bullet at .307/.308 inch. Just my opinion based on my experience.
Paul B.
 
OK. I loaded up 10 rounds in a Winchester Canadian Centennial rifle. I got it already fired so it is a shooter, not a collecter.
The average length of unfired Federal brand 170 gr. bullets was 2.513 inches from the box I had. After loading then, and carefully running them through the action, the average length was 2.507 inches. A difference of .006 inch. Now I don't think .006 inch will radically alter the pressure, but I was surprised to find that they were shortened by nothing more than being loaded into the magazine.
I guess we learn something new all the time.
Paul B.
 
Paul B,

Thanks for doing the experiment. At least I now know that I was not hallucinating when I witnessed these bullet setbacks. I find it strange that this topic has not been discussed in any of the major gun magazines that I have read over the years. Maybe it was but I missed it. Take care. :)
 
U2. I have been reading the gun rags and playing with model 94's for over 40 years, and I never saw the subject come up until you mentioned it. See! You're a groundbreaker. :)
Like I posted. I doubt that it makes any difference safetywise. Glad I could help.
Paul B.
 
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