Lever action rookie - defensive use: caliber/model/practicality?

E

EricO

New member
Recently, I've been reading lots of articles about lever action rifles used as a decent alternative to a semi-auto for urban defensive use. I have absolutely no knowledge of lever actions, and have never fired one.
If you were to purchase a short barrelled version, which caliber and model would you choose, and why? I'm thinking about urban use, within 75 yds. Also, as to caliber, I know there are some choices, such as 30-30, 44mag., 357mag, 45-70gov, etc, but I'd like to know if the handgun caliber cartridges out of the short barrelled versions are adequate for this purpose. The reason being is that most weapon purchases I make I tend to stick with ones where the ammo isn't too costly so practicing doesn't put a whole in my wallet. Obviosly, if I went thru a class, I wouldn't choose a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 to shoot 500-700 rounds with since I don't reload.
Which would be the best of the handgun cartridge, lever action, short barrelled versions? .357mag/ 44mag?
---Additionally, which aftermarket acces. would you install to enhance its defensive properties? Leather stock shell holders, Ashley aperture ghostring sights, etc..
Thanks for any suggestions,
EricO

[This message has been edited by EricO (edited August 18, 2000).]
 
I would definately go with something in 357 Magnum. You will have the versatility of switching between them and 38 Specials.
 
I'd be content with a .357. I'd get a carbine length; it's handier than the 4" more barrel on most rifles. It's also as handy as any "real short" version, from a practical standpoint.

Others here will know more than I about the cycling reliability with .38 Special ammo for practice and plinking.

Should you ever decide to add a scope, the Marlin would be preferred--side ejection.

Add-ons? Well, improving the sights is always good. Some kind of simple sling, for when you want your hands free. Overall, simpler is better.

Regards, Art

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited August 18, 2000).]
 
As far as what they feed reliably, mine (Marlin) works well with both 38's and 357's as long as they're not SWC. Those tend to hang up about once every 10 rounds or so. I would feel more comfortable with a 357 carbine than a handgun in a defensive situation as long as there was room to swing the barrel. You would not believe how fast and accurate they are once you're used to them. Watch some of the SASS shoots and you will be impressed.
 
Definitely .357 Magnum -- The muzzle velocity is substantially higher out of a Marlin than a revolver and its still smokin' at 100yds. The .357 can actually use the barrel length whereas the .38 Special doesn't improve much in velocity.

One note: rather than .38 Sp, go with .357 reduced loads. The chamber area will get crudded up if you use the shorter cartridge and might make chambering full length catridges more difficult over time. Also, use the 158 grain loads, the Marlin rifling likes them better -- don't know about Winchesters.

[This message has been edited by riverdog (edited August 18, 2000).]
 
I've got a 44mag 1894 Marlin lever with leather sling. Little recoil as compared with my 7.5" Redhawk revolver. Though it does have a slight more recoil than the 357 gun. But I have shot both, and neither likes to be fed 38 or 44 specials respectively. The silly guns will jam on loading sometimes, and I mean JAM, and requires a tear down of the gun. But there is almost no recoil when shooting the light loads. I would recommend the 44mag and get light loads for general shooting.

And the 44mag comes with a 10rnd tube mag. Thats 10 - .44magnum. That's defensive firepower, if that's what your concerned about. I know a man who hunts good size boar and black bear with his 44mag lever gun. I've owned one for about 7 years now and have never had a misfeed with 44 mag ammo. I recommend the marlin lever as well. I like mine and use it and others for home protection.

Good Luck and better shooting.
 
I've gone this route, and my choice is a Winchester M94 Trapper in .45 Colt. I have had the rear buckhorn sight removed and a filler put in the dovetail slot, and replaced it with a Williams aperture sight which has a screw-out aperture. This makes for a decent ghost ring set up.
I'm still looking into getting a front sight with some sort of bead, either ivory or tritium. The standard factory front will do OK, though.
I've also replaced the factory stocks with a Ram Line polycarb stock. If you go this route, be prepared to spend a little time "fiddling" with rear barrel band screw to get it to fit back on. I had to put the forestock & barrel band on, then use one screwdriver to push up on the tip of the band screw while using another screwdriver to seat the screw into the threads on the band. It took a while to get it right, but the results are worth it. I've now got a "cowboy assault rifle." :)
I've been shooting some handloads using a 200 gr. bullet that clocks about 800fps from a 6" barrel. Out of the 16" barrel, these same loads clock at 1175fps! I'm sure that if you push to the maximum load for .45 Colt, you can get near to .44 Magnum velocities out of the carbine, but without getting the .44 Mag pressures. If you want to use the "Ruger/Contender" loads for .45 Colt in a carbine, well.....zooooooom!
I'm trying to decide whether I should standardize on either WW 225 gr. Silvertips or CCI Blazer 200 gr HP for my home defense load. I'm leaning toward Blazer, but I'm a little worried about that because no one locally stocks it and I'd have to mail order it. Also, CCI has finally discontinued the venerable Speer 200 gr. "flying ashtray" HP bullet and is now using a Gold Dot 200 gr. HP. I liked that old style bullet. Loaded into a .45ACP, it was a good "proofing" load for testing feed reliablity. Generally, if your autoloader would gobble up the "flying ashtray" without a burp, it would probably feed anything you could put in the mag. It feeds just fine in the carbine. Oh well, c'est la vie.

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center



[This message has been edited by 45King (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
I deliberated over this, and ended up buying a .357 trapper.
I figure that a .357 is devastating from a 6 inch barrel, so from a 16 inch barrel it is going to do the trick on any medium sized thin skinned target at short range ;)

A strange thing came up though: I had a heck of a time loading the rounds into the side slot with my thumb. The hole was too small for my fat thumb to get the rounds in all the way! Part of the idea is to be able to load the gun as you shoot, and I could barely get rounds in the tube even when I had all the time in the world.
(You discover the strangest things when you actually go and use something rather than looking at it in the store.)

So, I returned it and got a .44 Mag version. I am very happy now. It is much easier to load, because hole is fat enough for my thumb to get the round all the way in.
10 rounds of .44 mag out of a 16 inch barrel is a lot of firepower for a very compact and benign looking carbine!


I got the Winchester and am very happy with it.



[This message has been edited by CassandraComplex (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
Cassandra - here's a little tip on saving your thumb: don't push the round all the way in. Let it stick out a little and hold the loading gate open for you. Then, just push the next round in behind it, and let it stick out a little. There's a point where the next round won't stay put due to the spring pressure; from there on, you have to push them all the way in. On my .44 Trapper, that's about round #6.
 
Jeff, CA, wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>don't push the round all the way in. Let it stick out a little and hold the loading gate open for you. Then, just push the next round in behind it, and let it stick out a little. There's a point where the next round won't stay put due to the spring pressure;[/quote]

This may not work if you have small hands, but it works for me (medium hands.) When loading, hold the rifle by the receiver in the left hand with the fingertips positioned so that they're close to the loading gate. Push your round part way in with the right hand, then hold it in position with the middle finger of your left. You can put the finger either on top of the exposed portion of cartridge, or behind it. Just lift the finger out of the way for each subsequent round, then bring it down again. .45 Colt is easy to load this way, and I'd imagine .44 Mag is too. (Trapper in .45 Colt holds 9 in the mag tube.)

------------------
Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xxero:
Well . . . if you're going to push equal weight bullets out of barrels approximately the same diameter, the working pressures are going to be roughly equal. That's basic physics.

We can problematize this notion by considering internal ballistics -- faster powders generally generate more pressure for a given velocity.

Nonetheless, in order to get 44 mag. velocities out of a 45 Colt, you need 44 mag. pressures. Silhouette load data will push the 45 Colt to these pressures, BUT the guns are designed to manage the load.

Longer barrels will significantly increase velocity. So it's possible to get 44 mag. handgun velocities from a 45 Colt load in a rifle barrel.

Bottom line is if you're going to run magnum velocities in a 45 Colt, make sure the gun is up to managing the operating pressures. Lots of warnings in the load data about this issue and the 45 Colt.

[/quote]

Well, that load that clocks 1175 is 2 or 3 tenths below the maximum load for that bullet weight and powder, using stardard loading data (as opposed to R/TC data.) This data should conform to SAMMI specs for pressure, and that's a whole lot lower for .45 Colt than .44 Mag.
Could it be that the higher velocities are the result not so much of higher pressures but a different pressure curve caused by a longer barrel?



------------------
Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
My friend has a Winchester 94 Trapper in 44 magnum which serves as his home defense, truck and hunting gun... actually it is the only gun he owns. He has a rear peep sight (Ashley?) on the receiver and a nylon sling. Recently he shortened the stock by about 1 1/2" inches and this made the gun much faster to handle. Simple and effective rifle.
 
Right now, this second, nothing is going to beat the new Marlin 1894P for compactness and versatility. The rifle is a shade over 33 inches and weighs 5.75 pounds. It can handle a wide range of 44 Specials and 44 Magnum loads (a load for all seasons). It is also very economical to shoot. It power spectrum is good for the trunk of your car, in your home and is also able to harvest 99.9% of the game in North America. With a Wild West forward scope mount and extended eye relief scope, you are ready for any occasion.

c1894p_gun.gif


BTW 357 Magnum does not feed as reliable as a 44 Magnum in a lever gun.

Robert

[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
xxero, I've been doing a little checking around, and you're right on the pressure angle. The pressure curve itself is not different, just the time curve over which the pressure has to act. This allows for much higher velocities out of a longer barrel for .45 Colt. It doesn't work with all rounds, however. A friend found that he had velocity loss when shooting 9mm from a carbine as opposed to a pistol. He wasn't sure if it was carbines in general, or just the barrel of that particular carbine.

I still don't have an understanding, though, of why a load listed for standard pressure in a pistol would generate magnum pressure in a carbine.

A word of advice on carrying guns and ammo in your car. The vibration and bouncing from such can, over a long enough period of time, cause the powder inside the cartridges to become "pulverized" into dust. This will, of course, completely change the burn characteristics of the powder, and could very well turn a moderately loaded cartridge into a mini-bomb. I would advise rotating ammo after about 6 months or so.

------------------
Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
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