Leupold and PSS questions

H

Hipower

New member
I am expecting my new PSS to arrive any day and I'm struggling with the decison on a scope.

I was going to go with the Tasco SS10X42, but think I would be better served with a variable, so I'm now looking at the Leupolds.

I've narrowed the choice down to one of the 3.5X10-40 Tactical models, but need some help with the final cut.

What are thr pros and con's of the 3.5X10 LR M1 vs. the 3.5X10 LR M3? I like the BDC idea, but are 1 MOA adjustments too coarse for a rifle like the PSS? How well does the BDC track with 168g Matchkings?

Will you need bases with elevation built in to reach 1000 with these scopes?

How much better would the above set ups be, vs a Vari-X II 3-9 on Badger bases with 20moa built in?

Thanks in advance for the input.

Bill
 
Go with the Tasco.

IMHO, I would reconsider the Tasco SS. You'll spend much less money and get a scope on par with the Leupold's. Also, why are you against a fixed power scope? Just curious. :D


kgs.
 
If you're going mil-dots, I believe they work as a rangefinder only if you leave the scope in 10x. If you were to start playing with a variable like a Leupold, some math skills will be required for rangefinding. That's why those MK4 Leupolds are fixed. No fuss, no muss and straight calculations.

Don't get me wrong. Variables are good too. A high fixed power scope will give you a narrower field of view (and smaller peripherial and smalled situational awareness). At closer range, especially for police shooting, a lower power is highly desirable and the Leupold duplex works well for rangefinding too.

If I had the loot, I'd prefer the Vari III 3.5x10 M3 Leupold scope (with the side focus knob and 30 mm tube).
 
I have an LR-M3 on my PSS, which I will be selling shortly as I am replacing it with an IOR 4-14X50. You might want to give them a look before you plunge for the Leupold. They can be found at http://www.snipercountry.com at discounted prices. Just go to the PX. They also have a review of all three scopes, Leupold, Tasco and IOR.

As far as the Leupold goes; it has good glass although mine has shown some fuzzyness around the edges. The point of impact change from power setting changes is negligible. The adjustments are OK with good repeatability. No matter what I do, I always end up with the thing clicking in between hash marks on the dial. This could of course be just me. Also the side focus is a great thing as you can easily reach it . The things I dislike: 1) Windage and elevation clicks between hash marks (easily overcome by simply counting) 2)Fuzzyness 3) No sun Shade

Type of knobs? Depends on what it is you want to do. My 1 moa BDC has suited me well over the past few years. I am constantly 1/2 moa off, but at the ranges that I can hit things that will still get me a clean hit. I'm sure if I tweaked my loads some I could over come that, but in reality it makes very little difference to me weather I hit the top half of the bulseye or the bottom half. If youre looking for hair splitting accuracy then go with the target knobs. If youre looking of accuracy with the ability to quickly and efficiently change ranges go with the BDC.

Bases. Go with the tapered ones for sure. My M3 has 50+ (cant remember the exact number) moa of elevation adjustments. With 168's at 2600 fps you'll need somewhere around 42 minutes of elevation to reach 1000 yds. This leaves you with very little to get your zero.

BDC: They are designed for METERS not yards. Leupold is supposed to be coming out with a set for yards. They are also designed for rounds traveling exactly 2600 fps. Depending on your load and how fast it moves out of your rifle, they will be a little off. This is why the USMC Unertl scope has a BDC+ a fine tune knob. Your best bet is to develop a load and then work up your own BDC or proof every lot you shoot.
 
The BDC is too course to get the fine tuning down. Quarter minute adjustments seem to be user friendly, allowing one to tighten up a group or get a range more precisely, IMO. I watched a fellow shooter have trouble with a 3.5x10 M3 hold a consistant zero at 100 yards, because the adjustment was too course.
Another option is to make a BDC on the dial. Tactical Shooter ran an article on this a while back, using 1/4 minute knobs. A chance of best of both ideas? I don't know.
I do not have BDC experiences so I could not say for sure if I like them, but from what I have seen I am not impressed. I'll stick to the 1/4 minute knobs.
A lot depends on what the rifle is used for, groups or range, and what the shooter feels more comfortable with.
 
I wanted to thank all you TFL'rs for the input on my questions.

After thinking about what I wanted, and trading a few mails with some TFL'rs, I've decided to go with the Leupold 3.5X10X40 LR M3/Badger mounts.

In the final analysis, I think I'd be far more likely miss (and to miss by a larger margin) due to forgeting where my elevation was than being off by 1/2 MOA or so.

I'd rather be able to look at the elevation and see that I've dialed in the 500 yard setting and put a round in a 5" circle, than to forget the 1/4 minute sights were at my 200 yard zero, and miss the target completely. Since the 1/4 MOA's require several rotations to go from 100-1000 it's very feasable that even with marked sights you will eventually, be off by one full rotation or more.

The varilable power was less of a concern than the BDC for me, but It will be nice to be able to dial back for closer in.

If the Tasco were available in a 6X (the 10X would be ok) with a BDC for .308 I probably would have saved a few bucks and had a scope I'd be happy as a clam with.

BTW, FED168 It seems to me the guy you saw was "chasing the bullet hole". If the round is within 1/2 inch at 100, the rifle is zeroed.

With 1 MOA sights there is no value in adjusting the sight when your rounds group 1/2 inch above/below your POA.
 
For the M3 use the 30-06 cam w/ 175 SMK

Caveat on the M3, Leupold has acknowledged that the .308 Win BDC cam does not track the 168 gr SMK properly.

If you plan on shooting out past 600 yards, try using the FED GMM2 (175gr SMK) and the 30-06 cam. I found that this combination tracks out very well out to 1000 yards (when used with at least a 20 MOA base) NEAR Manufacturing has now produced a 45 MOA tapered base with I see a few of the LRTs using now at the 1000 yard shoots.
 
HK_CQB, Thanks. How fast do I need to push the 175's to get them to track?

Do you have a "pet" load?

I currently use IMR 4895 for another load, so if you have a recommended load using that I'd appreciate it.

PS -- I know. Never take reloading advice off the internet, consult a reloading manual, start well below and work up towards the max load, carefully check for pressure signs etc. etc. ect.
 
My 1/50 of a dollar.

Whatever you do, get the tappered bases. They are essential for long range shooting. I am going to have to shim my scope bases this weekend because I run out of elevation past 800 yards.

I would go with the M1 if it were me. It is very simple to remember how many clicks up or down you need to go for a well developed load. For instance. By memory I know that my scope knobs are zeroed for my 110gr V-max loads at 100 yards. I know that the Speer 125's are on at 100 by going down three clicks. I know that my Sierra 168's and 175's are on dead on at 100 at 4 clicks above zero. I know at 200 yards the 125's are on at 5 clicks above zero and the 168's and 175's are on at 8 clicks above zero. And I know all of the distances up to about 300 and 600 yards from there from memory (18 clicks for 300 and 64 for 600). The nice thing about the m1 target knobs is that everything is labeled in MOA with the 1/4 lines in between. So if I need to go up 64 clicks, that is 16 MOA. It just takes a little math.

With the BDC, you are going to have to develop a load that works with your scope, or you are going to have to relabel your BDC. Why not just take the time and develop a good load for your rifle, stick with that load, and then commit the data to memory. Or even printing it out on a spreadsheet and having it handy with your rifle will work. Tape it to the stock if you have too.

I personally put a Leupold 6.5-20x50mm Long Range Target on my Rem 700 VS. It works great. And it is awefully nice to be able to zoom in to 20 power on any target beyong 300 yards.
 
Factory load of Fed GMM2 is good but I also use

My accuracy load for my .308 = 44.0 gr. Varget under a 175 SMK, Lapua case, and Fed 210 M primer. Assembled to an OAL of 2.800". Velocity of this from my Obermeyer barreled M40A1 clone is 2,650 FPS. This achieves point of aim/point of impact hits at 600 yards with 15 MOA.

YMMV, and start easy on the OAL. I had my rifle specifically chambered to spec.
 
HP, fwiw, I also chose the Leupold 3.5X10X40 LR M3, and am quite happy with it. It tracks well using Fed GM Match 168g. Good luck
 
Again thanks for all the valuable input. I got bases with 20 MOA built in. I hope that'll do it.

Re: my leanings towards the M3 vs the M1, learning my zeros and commiting to memory didn't seem like such a big deal, but I know from shooting service rifle, that you can easily forget to add elevation or add elevation from the wrong starting point when changing distances.

I know I could deal with it from the bench, at known distances, with no time pressure, but if you add time constraints and multiple targets at varying ranges, I know myself well enough to know I'll adjust from the wrong point sooner or later.

I have a military background and old habits die hard. If I'm shooing at the center of a 1" square at 100 yards, and all the rounds go into 1/2" hole 3/4" high, that is fine for me. I value the ability to quickly shift from 100 to 500 or more, and quickly get a solid hit more than to split gnat hairs.
 
An easy way to keep track of your zero per any given range is to bottom the elevation and windage turrets and count up or right from bottom.
What you end up with is a reapeatable means of setting the optic for the shot and or condition.

If your 300 yard zero is two rotations off the bottom and your zero wind setting is one rotatioin right your optic setting would be 120 U / 60 R. If your next shot requires 40 additional clicks of elevation, your optic's setting would be 160 U / 60 R. Using this method you'll never get lost.

A mil dot reticle is essential for making range estimations.

The high speed formula is thus:

Target height in inches X 27.77 divided by mils = range. You will need a pocket calculator to do the math.

If the target is 30 inches in height.

30 X 27.77 = 833.10.

833.1 will become a constant. As you look through the optic you would place the horizontal cross wire at the base of the target and then measure the targets height in mils using the mil dots. The dots are spaced one mil apart, center to center, top to top, bottom to bottom, and so forth.

If the target measures two mils in height, you divide 833.1 by 2 and the range to the target is 416 yards away.

The drop at 400 yards from a 200 yd zero is 27 inches.

Most scopes have a click value of .25 MOA. For each click the point of impact would shift .25 inches at 100 yards, .5 inches at 200 yds, .75 inches at 300 yards, 1.0 inches at 400 yards and so on.

To adjust for a 400 yard shot from a 200 yard zero you would come up 27 clicks.

If the wind is at 10 mph full value from 9:00 to 3:00 you would place 14 clicks of left windage on the optic and you'd be set for the shot.

HTH

Good Shooting!



  
 
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