Let's try this.

N

Nightcrawler

New member
I've you've been paying any attention to me over the past few months (you know who you are), you'll know that I've been racking my brains trying to figure out which autochucker to get this summer. There are so many pistols that I like, yet I haven't access to a rental range or anything, so I can't try any of them out, other than possibly holding them in a gun shop.

It occurred to me that maybe if instead of finding pistols that I like and asking about them, it might be more, eh, productive if I sat down and thought about what I'd prefer in a self loader and let y'all make suggestions. So, below are my ideal requirements, and notes.

COST: No more than $650 NIB at this time.
AVAILABILITY: Not much selection in pistols around here, so it's got to be something I can have my dealer order from the factory. I want a new pistol, as well.
CARTRIDGE: No less than 9x19mm.
CAPACITY: The only single stack gun I really like is the 1911, so let's set the minimum capacity at 10+1. If its' a 9mm, then pre ban 15 round (or so) magazines must be available at a reasonable price.
SIZE: Prefer a full sized or semicompact at this time. No pocket rockets.
READY TO GO?: The pistol must be ready to go out of the box. No accessories (other than magazines) needed, no modifying. Unfortunately, this leaves out all quality 1911s in my price range (ambi safety issue.)
SIGHTS: Prefer 3-dot, fixed.
SAFETY: Prefer a manual safety, or at least a grip safety, or double action. Maybe it's due to inexperience, but the idea of carrying a gun with a light trigger and no safety (ala Glock) makes me a bit uncomfortable; have fears of the trigger snagging on something. I don't consider a little tab on the trigger to be a safety.
ACTION: Double Action/Single Action, Single Action Only, or Striker Fired. No double action only pistols.
CONTROLS: The slide stop and the manual safety (if there is one) MUST be in a place where I can reach them with my firing hand, while maintaining a firm grip on the weapon. If the only safety is a decocker, then it's location isn't really important.
ACCURACY: Must be able to hit a pie plate out to the effective range of the cartridge. Combat accuracy only. Not looking for a target pistol.

NOTES

-The only Glock I'd be interested in is the 20 or 29, as I like the 10mm cartridge. For any other caliber, there are other guns I like better. Sorry, Glock Faithful.

-The only quality 1911s in my price range (SA Mil-Spec, New Colt 1911s) lack ambi safeties, and an ambi safety is a requirement for me to use a 1911. I could work around not having one, but I don't want to.

So. Suggestions?
 
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Nightcrawler, sounds to me like you want a Walther P99. 9mm or .40, three dot sights, great ergonomics, adjustable backstraps for grips. The P99 is an awesome gun check it out. :)
 
Sounds like you just described a CZ http://www.cz-usa.com/_p/p01.php

As for your aversion to Glocks (because of the lack of safety) the Glock (and the Steyr M series ...although they also have a safety) have a trigger that is designed not to be pulled by things "snagging" on them so your worries there are unfounded.
 
I don't know anything about the Walther P99. What kind of action does it have? The P99 Page says it's traditional double action. Yet it lacks an exposed hammer and does have a decocker. That's unusual.

Also, what's the difference between the P99 and P990?
 
There are three versions of the P99. It is a striker fired weapon. The first version is traditional Da/SA this is the P99. Second version is a Quick action trigger (half cock like Glock) this is the P99QA. Last is DAO the P990. If you do a search on the P99 some of the members here have websites with lots of info.
 
Ok, lemme do a quick comparison, how about a CZ75?

COST: No more than $650 NIB at this time.
about $400 for a compact, less for a fullsize, and the military guns are quite a bargain.
AVAILABILITY: Not much selection in pistols around here, so it's got to be something I can have my dealer order from the factory. I want a new pistol, as well.
Most stores have one, and if not, they can be ordered.
CARTRIDGE: No less than 9x19mm.
9x19 mm, which is your minimum.
CAPACITY: The only single stack gun I really like is the 1911, so let's set the minimum capacity at 10+1. If its' a 9mm, then pre ban 15 round (or so) magazines must be available at a reasonable price.
Pre-ban 15 round mags are around $40
SIZE: Prefer a full sized or semicompact at this time. No pocket rockets.
Available in both compact and fullsize models.
READY TO GO?: The pistol must be ready to go out of the box. No accessories (other than magazines) needed, no modifying. Unfortunately, this leaves out all quality 1911s in my price range (ambi safety issue.)
Generally reliable right out of the box, this from everyone I've talked to who owns one. No ambi safety though.
SIGHTS: Prefer 3-dot, fixed.
Sights: 3-dot, fixed.
SAFETY: Prefer a manual safety, or at least a grip safety, or double action. Maybe it's due to inexperience, but the idea of carrying a gun with a light trigger and no safety (ala Glock) makes me a bit uncomfortable; have fears of the trigger snagging on something. I don't consider a little tab on the trigger to be a safety.
Manual safety on the right side of the frame.
ACTION: Double Action/Single Action, Single Action Only, or Striker Fired. No double action only pistols.
DA/SA and SA only models available.
CONTROLS: The slide stop and the manual safety (if there is one) MUST be in a place where I can reach them with my firing hand, while maintaining a firm grip on the weapon. If the only safety is a decocker, then it's location isn't really important.
You're going to have to find this out for yourself.
ACCURACY: Must be able to hit a pie plate out to the effective range of the cartridge. Combat accuracy only. Not looking for a target pistol.
No problemo at all.

So, you may want to check out the CZ line.

Actually, the best advice I can give is that if you want to try a bunch of guns out, go to a local gunshow.
True, you can't shoot them, but you can pick them up to see if the ergonomics are to your liking.
It may actually be worth it to check www.shotgunnews.com for an upcoming show, take a Saturday, a couple o' buds, and hop in a car and go, even if it's a one or two hour drive.
 
Sounds like the ONLY answer to your dilema is to buy a Ruger P-89, then immediately start saving for your second. If you shop around, you should be able to get TWO P-89's for less than $700(over the counter, standard retail-type buy). You won't EVER find a more reliable auto, doesn't matter how much money has been sunk into it! I'm very happy with my two and will be getting a third before the year is out! There is SURELY nothing wrong with ALOT of other auto's of the same type, but none will give you the reliability out of the box at anywhere NEAR the price.
Just one man's less than humble opinion......
MO JENKINS
 
CZ 75B SA

I got a NIB for $399 and 15 round mags for $35. This weapon is fantastic!!! At 7 yrds I can put 10 in one ragged hole. It is much more accurate than I am most of the time.

It has great fit and finish, Highly recommend!!

Thanks,
JD
 
For $650, with all the qualities you require, I think the HK USP, either in full size or compact, would fit the bill.

C&L carry, tough as tanks, more accurate than I could ever be, rated for +P+ ammo, reeks of renowned German quality...

Hope this helps!
 
For $650, with all the qualities you require, I think the HK USP, either in full size or compact, would fit the bill.
Click to expand...

Ha! USP's run $800+ around here. Of course, it's $620 for a Glock 21, too. Prices are high in my area, unfortunately.
 
Beretta 92 Stainless

If you can find one a Beretta 92G Elite II. That's a decock only DA/SA gun. Takes M9/Beretta 92 mags of course. Hicaps are about as cheap as it gets.

Good luck


John
 
it's a one or two hour drive.
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The biggest gun shows in the Upper Peninsula are...well, not much. The real gun shows are down state. More like a 6+ hour drive, requiring motel rooms and such. It's the price one pays for living in the boonies. :o

Everyone says that CZ-75 fifteen round mags are cheap. Where are you buying them from? CDNN sells out as fast as they get them. Same thing with Beretta mags. What do you get, where do you get them, and how much do you pay?
 
You can get factory mags from a guy on the CZ Forum. They used to be $35 plus shipping but his supplier raised prices and they went to (ouch) $38 :D . Unfortunately, it sounds like his supplier is out so once he sells what he has he needs a new supplier and then who knows what price he'll have.

You can also get them directly from CZ via their website (they made a ton just before the ban so they still have them) for $48.

The CZ 75 is a great gun (I absolutely love mine) but since you want ambi controls you will need the CZ 85 (about $40 more). Other than the ambi controls the CZ 85B is the same gun as the CZ 75B. Since you are willing to go to $650 anyway you may want to consider the CZ 85 Combat with adjustable sights, no firing pin safety (gives it a better trigger pull), adjustable trigger and more additions for about $70-100 more than a base CZ 85B. My buddy's CZ 85 Combat has the best DA/SA trigger I've ever shot, great sights (I was more accurate with it the first time I shot it than my CZ 75 which I had put over 2000 rounds through) and if you get it you'll still have plenty of money left in your stated budget for ammo and holsters.

Oh, in your budget if you get a base CZ 75B or CZ 85B you may have enough left for a nice used S&W or Colt revolver or a new Taurus revolver. Two for the price of one:D.

If you can't find CZs in your area (lets face it, most dealers don't carry it) and you don't want to order a gun without handling it the Ruger P89 isn't a bad gun and I've never seen a shop that carried new guns that didn't have it (some that only carry used don't always have it). I had one that was very reliable, about as reliable as my CZ 75 (0 hiccups in 2000-3000 rounds for the Ruger, 2 hiccups in 2500-3000 rounds for the CZ both in the first 200). It wasn't nearly as accurate as the Ruger P90 (the .45acp version) and wasn't in the same league as the CZ. It also doesn't match the CZ in fit and finish. All that for about $50 more than the CZ:rolleyes:. However, it is a good gun and can be had for substantially less than most competition. Another good alternative that virtually every shop should carry is the Taurus PT92, I have heard nothing but good things from people who actually own the gun.
 
Caliban pretty much laid it all out. Besides if you don't like the CZ (hard to believe, but it's possible!), you won't have any trouble finding a new home for it with very little, if any, $ loss.
 
Browning HP written all over it. Yes, you can get one for less than your price.

FWIW the 1911 ambi is 60 bucks from Wilson's and with a little brainpower and a fine file you too can install it easily. I spent 30 minutes in which I fitted the safety, cut my right stock in two places to accomodate the new arrival, drilled the ball detent deeper, chopped off half the left side safety and re-blued it. Damn I love a dremel tool ;) Anyway, the safety is easy. Plus they send you a catalogue w/ the parts so you can drool to your heart's content.
 
how's this sound?

I'm putting together some ideas for a lineup. I'm obviously not going to be settled by only one handgun. How's this sound:

CZ-85B 9mm

Springfield Mil-Spec .45 (modified with ambi safety)

Ruger GP100 4" stainless .357

Sound like a good collection for starters? It'll only get bigger, too. I'll need a compact carry gun, a Vaquero, etc.

What an expensive habit this is. LOL

I honestly did not expect to have this much trouble deciding which handgun to get. I'm new to handguns, and there are SO MANY choices out there. It's tough.
 
Don't rule out a 1911 just yet, you can purchase an ambi saftey for around $25-30 and install it yourself.

I say go Walther P99 though :)
 
I'm putting together some ideas for a lineup. I'm obviously not going to be settled by only one handgun.
Click to expand...
I remember when I got my first, I took forever too, though at first I had this strange idea that I'd only have one (then just before I got it I figured on two- one auto and one revolver). If you know you'll be buying a bunch go ahead and buy one already ;). If it isn't perfect you can round things out with your next purchase (which will come sooner than you'd expect).
How's this sound:

CZ-85B 9mm

Springfield Mil-Spec .45 (modified with ambi safety)

Ruger GP100 4" stainless .357
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good start. Before I started getting the extra CZs (I've got my second now) and the small guns (the Bersa and the small framed snub) I got a medium framed .357, a 1911 and my CZ in 9mm. You may also want to consider a blackpowder revolver- cheap to buy (you can find them for well under $200, in fact under $150 is fairly reasonable for the entry level guns), cheap to shoot, great fun, different, and you don't need to worry about waiting periods or waiting for background checks in most states (Fed law does not treat them as firearms).
 
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