Let's talk about "safe neighborhoods"--false security?

Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
Many of you know I bought a P220, partly because Illinois law requires that a gun be cased and unloaded when off your property and a semi-auto allows me to load the magazine and thus stand a slightly better chance. I was under the impression that I'd told the wife this was my intent (and thus that my intent was to carry it in the car,) but apparently it wasn't clear. I picked up the gun yesterday morning, put 100 rds through it with great results, cleaned it, and the next time we were leaving the house I slipped the mag in my pocket and grabbed the case. This bothered the wife so much that I left it home, that time.

This is where it gets interesting. I sometimes forget that my wife has come a long way in a year and still has some sheeplike tendencies deeply engrained. She says we live in a "safe little town."

Now, she should know as well as I do that on the street I grew up on, there was one murderer and one stalker plus lord knows who else. But I responded that the world is not divided into "safe" and "unsafe zones," else we would simply not go to the unsafe ones in the first place, and also that bad guys have cars and you never know where you'll encounter them. Finally, I pointed out that the point of carrying when you don't think you need the gun is to get into the habit because you don't know when you'll need it--just as she buckled her seatbelt to go less than 3 miles to the store.

She seemed to accept this for now, but what do the rest of you say in this situation?
(In case you're wondering, I'm going back to the range this afternoon after work and Missy's coming along this time. I think a lot of her nervousness will disappear once she gets that .45 grin on her face.)
 
Take her for a tour of your local jail to see her "neighbors" and then to an emergency room. Have her talk to a few of the people there. Then get in touch with the local rape respond person. Then ask her to take a good look at your house and find its weak points where a goblin could get in some dark night when everyone is sleeping. Do take her to the range. If necessary offer to let her pick out her own gun that will be just for her. Tell her it is a gift of love to her from you because she is the most important person in the world and you don't want to lose her. Then take her back to the range a lot!

Genie
www.knifeforums.com
www.mothersarms.org

[This message has been edited by Racegun (edited July 11, 2000).]
 
It take time for loved ones to get over their "Sheep Training".

I have lived in Illinois and know first hand the ingraining that begins at early childhood from schools and media to develop the "citizens" to "subjects" of the state.

My wife and I grew up in New York State and suffered the same "conditioning" We havn't lived there in 30 years but she still reverts to that conditioning at times. SAD...

Keep at her, gently of course, and she will come around.
 
Look for the crime reports site for your neighbor and the sex criminals report.
www.apbnews.com usually has links to it.

As far as anecdotes - I live in a nice neighborhood and there was a murder across the street about 6 months ago.

When I live in a nice neighborhood in OR, there was a gang that specialized in driving around the nice neighborhood and nailing yuppie male types when they were getting out of the beamer.

Also, Don - see if your local newspaper has a search and come up with holdups in the near vicinity.

Hate to scare people but reality is reality.
 
Like most things in life, crime is a percentage game. You live in a bad area, you are at higher risk. Live in a nice area, lower risk. There is no zero risk area.

Statistical anomalies abound. The closest I have ever been to a murder was in my youth when I briefly lived in a fairly upscale neighborhood in LA. To paraphrase our beloved Marion Barry, "Aside from the killins, ..." When I've lived in less than ideal neighborhoods, no murders that I know of.

Don, I recommend you off-handedly comment to your wife that the lowest, vilest scumbags from southside Chicago are but a short drive from your neighborhood, and that career criminals like to pick on the soft-bellied suburbanites.

Its all about risk management, which is why the seat belt comment is highly apropo. Avoid known high-risk locations/activities, and prepare for the rest.
 
Years ago, a reporter asked the notorious bank robber, Willie Sutton, why he robbed banks?

Willie looked at the guy as if he'd fallen out of a tree and said, "Because that's where the money is!"

In like manner, if you were to ask criminals today why they "go to the nice neighborhoods to practice their profession?", they'd look at you askance and say, "Hey, man, that's where the money is."

You might tell you wife that. J.B.
 
Mr. Gwinn,

You can also transport your pistol uncased and loaded as long as it is not immediately accessible (trunk) AND you have an FOID.

If you are sitting in a car, you can have a pistol uncased and unloaded nearby, but you can't have the ammo immediately accessible (vague term, I wish they were more specific). My source is the ISRA article on House Bill 739 which is the new UUW bill(Unlawful Use of Weapons). The transport rules are essentially unchanged for FOID holders.

I'm not sure what you mean by "better chance" since there is no concealed carry in Illinois.
 
Agent, according to the Safe Neighborhoods Act, ammunition is completely irrelevant as long as it's not in the gun. Thus a loaded magazine sitting with the gun, or in your pocket, is perfectly legal as long as you have a valid FOID and any guns that are accessible are cased and unloaded. Thus the Sig, unloaded and in the case, with the magazine loaded and in my pocket, and immediately accessible next to me, is legal as long as I have a FOID card.

The DNR's magazine, Outdoor Illinois, had a great article on the issue of transportation this month co-written by an assistant chief of the ISP (Wakolbinger or something like that) and the head of the Conservation Police. The article also mentions that ammunition can be anywhere as long as you have a FOID and it's not in the gun.

You can read the article at http://dnr.state.il.us/gunbroc.htm if you'd like.

I was only talking about having the gun unloaded and cased, not uncased or loaded. "Better chance" meant, if I needed the gun, a better chance of being able to load it in time than I had with my revolver for which I couldn't find speedloaders (though I'll probably see three at the next gun show, now that I've spent money on something else. :rolleyes: )

And unfortunately, you're right; there's absolutely no way to carry in IL short of becoming a state cop or gov't office holder. I've looked. However, at http://www.gunssavelife.com, you can find the text of the McDade decision. It has a reference to the case of a woman who won on appeal after she was arrested for possessing a cased, unloaded pistol in her purse with a valid FOID (walking in a public area, not driving.) It doesn't mention ammunition but it does suggest that the UUW standard applies on your person as well, though I wouldn't bet my teaching license on that.

Well, that's enough IL gun laws for one day. This stuff raises my blood pressure.
 
There is no safety this side of the grave, some folks live under the illusion of safety.
Some places are safer than others, but no place is safe.

This house has emergency equipment, including fire extinguishers, first aid supplies,flashlights, guns and phones. The gun I carry is like the phone,or the Mag lite in the car, something to help me and mine live till another day.
 
Hey Don --

You might want to share this with your wife:

I just moved to a baaaad neighborhood -- one of HUD's "areas in need of revitalization." We're talking the neighborhood that spawned Project Exile.

Before I moved in, I was talking to some of my neighbors about the crime here and what to expect. The other "urban homesteaders" laughed and told me not to worry about break-ins here, because the thugs figure that no one around here has anything worth fooling with. When they're ready to strike, they head out to the "safe neighborhoods" where they know they'll get a better haul.

I'm still having a system installed and keeping protection at hand, but it's something for you (and her) to think about....

------------------
*quack*

[This message has been edited by duck hunt (edited July 13, 2000).]
 
I posted this a while ago but it might be worth repeating. There's a site where you enter your zip code and it supplies you with a rating for your particular neighborhood. However, as Ivanhoe pointed out, a lot of this is a game of chance as you can live in a "bad" neighborhood and never be touched by crime or live in a "good" neighborhood and be the "unlucky" one. The best thing to do is what you are doing ... hope for the best but be prepared for the worst. Regards,
FUD
fudeagle.gif

Share what you know, learn what you don't.


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited July 13, 2000).]
 
Don,

According to your link, as well as my info, you may transport a loaded uncased weapon as long as it is not immediately accessible (under UUW).

The Wildlife Code seems to complicate things. I don't understand how the Wildlife Code would apply in this instance. Where is the Wildlife Code enforced? (in state parks?)

However, violation of the Wildlife Code is the equivalent of a speeding ticket (misdemeanor) so it is no big deal.

[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited July 13, 2000).]
 
I guess what I'm trying to say, Agent, is that I know I could transport it loaded if it's locked in the trunk, but in my opinion the gun is more useful within easy reach even though it's unloaded. It's easier and way faster to grab the empty gun, remove it from the case and load it if needed than it is to get out of the car and unlock the trunk. Again, this is only my opinion and either way is legal. Also, I can see how most cops in Illinois would cut you more slack with the gun in the trunk regardless of any other factor.

The Wildlife code doesn't really change very much. The point they're making is that officially, under the criminal code, the gun can be in a "case, box, shipping container, or other container." In other words, your gun doesn't have to be in a recognized "gun case" as long as it's in some kind of container.
But under the Wildlife code, the gun DOES have to be in a case. Other containers are not good enough. What they're saying is, don't read the criminal code and think you can transport your gun in a cardboard box, because if you run into a CPO or a cop who knows this technicality he can still charge you with UUW.
Good God, there's no way to explain this crap clearly. I'm so tired of this place.
 
Don,

Thanks for the links. I try to get as much info as possible so that I cannot be charged with a crime. I agree with you that these regs are silly. I think the State of Illinois tries to make things confusing in order to intimidate gun owners.

However there have been instances where even the State Police has been ignorant of the law, as you know from the McDade decision. The Chief of the State Police sent out an informational poster last year that was supposed to spell out the legal transport rules, but he got it wrong! He was corrected by the president of the Champaign area Rifle Association. Further, even my gun dealer is ignorant of the law, since they go by what they see on the evening news.
 
My neighborhood is haveing a "Night out against crime" next week. Its for all of us to get to know each other and meet the local LEO. I asked what kind of reception I would receive showing up with the AR in african carry and the .45 on the hip. The look I got back was priceless. :D :D :D

Ok... So maybe I have a sense of humor that is just a BIT warped. ;)

Bubba
 
Some criminals (burglars) will target nice safe affluent neighborhoods since the haul is more rewarding & the vigilance is more relaxed. Unless you're surrounded by more affluent (better loot) neighborhoods, yours could be next.
 
Don,

During the summer of '82, I lived in a wonderful, affluent, safe neighborhood between McLean and Vienna in Fairfax County, Virginia. By any standard, it was an ideal place to live and to raise a family. Late one night (actually ~0200), two guys break into my lovely, suburban, and OCCUPIED home. I confront them, they flee, the Fairfax Police captures them, and eventually they go to prison.

The relevant point for your fine wife is simple: you could not ask for a better or safer area, yet two felons removed a sliding glass door, entered an inhabited home (wife, kids and me asleep upstairs), and attempted to steal things.

We all have homeowners, life, and health insurance and you probably have a fire extinguisher as well as some supplies for winter storms when the power goes out -- well, your Sig P-220 plus solid training and good judgment provide your anti-criminal insurance.

With best regards.
 
Agent, I think we've been tracing each other's footsteps online. The CCRA site http://www.gunssavelife.com was my first intro to the real Illinois laws.

Prior to seeing this page and beginning my investigations, I simply believed what my father taught me. He held an FFL for years and ran a gun shop for five, but he believed what the state police told him the laws were, and how can you fault anyone but the state police for that? Surely he had a right to expect that he could trust them to tell him the truth. I guess that's what burns me the most. We always believed the guns had to be cased, unloaded, and inaccessible. We were also always told that the ammunition could not be accessible to the gun--i.e., if the gun is in the trunk the ammo must be in the passenger compartment or vice versa. Transported all our weapons that way for years.
Dad was also told that five-shot shotguns became illegal weapons in IL if you removed the magazine plug that restricts them to 3 shots for hunting! He told me that one this year when I told him how I had my shotgun set up in our new apartment. He was afraid that I'd be arrested and charged with a felony if I ever defended myself with it, for possession of a five-shot Remington 1100.[/i}
GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Hey, I'm making progress, though. Missy went to see her parents this weekend. She has to drive up I-55 and she's always stopping at rest stops because she likes the coffee, but this time she took along the Ruger MK1. I know, I know, it's not your first choice or mine for a defensive handgun, but it's easy for her to shoot and she trusts it, while she can't control the P220. I packed it up legally for her and sent her on her merry way with a copy of the McDade decision and DNR's Q&A article in the case. Six months ago this would have been unthinkable!
 
She likes rest stop coffee? That stuff is worse than the State coffee I have to drink at the prison every night. Where is Virden, Don? And how far up 55 does she have to go? I could name at least one excellent truck stop where she can get some real coffee.

Rob
 
Virden's about half an hour South of Springfield. We take 55 North to 47, around Dwight. You're down by Carbondale, aren't you?
 
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