Let's talk 223's

M

mdd

New member
I have one 223 bolt action rifle. It has 1:12 twist rifling and shoots 40 grain vmax at a comparable velocity to the 204 with the same weight of bullet. I also have a 204 that I purchased before I truly had this 223 sorted out. I have shot them side by side and the difference in muzzle velocity is honestly imperceptible. If I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't own the 204. The 223 now sports a timney trigger, a leupold vx-ii 4-12x40 ao scope and it shoots 1.5" groups at 200 yds. I'm very happy with this rifle and it makes a wonderful varmint rig. It's become my go-to for coyote calling in the winter although the 25-06 still gets the nod when the wind is howling.
I see a lot of threads regarding 223's with 1:9 and faster twist rifling as well as the accompanying discussion of shooting up to 77 grain bullets. I don't understand the attraction of shaving 1k fps off your rifle's potential. I have to assume these aren't varmint rigs anymore but simply paper killers? I always figured if I wanted to send a bullet in that weight range, it would be from a 243. So what is your 223's twist rate? How heavy of bullets does it like & what do you do with it?
 
I shoot an AR White Oak Service Rifle with a 1:7. I shoot normally 77s at 200 & 300 and 80s at 600 & 1000 yards. They are slower then your 40 grn pills but they hold up better for long range shooting. I'll probably try 90s this summer and see what happens but I'm happy with the 80 SMks.

Yeah you can get 80 & 90 grn 243s butt they arn't legal in Service Rifle Matches. You could make a match rifle but I pefer the Service Rifle catagory.

I guess it depends on what you want to do with the rifle, sometimes you just cant bet by with light bullets.
 
mini mauser

I have an early Interarms Mini-Mauser, which is twisted 1/12. These are trim, lightweight gems w/ 20" slim barrels. Mine has been fed primarily 55 and 62 factory ammo. I bought it initially as a training/transition rifle for my boy from rimfire to centerfire. I under scoped it w/ a fixed 6x, but it does make for a handy package.

Bamaboy shot it so well that at age 11 he started killing deer with the thing, using either 62 or 55 grain Federal bonded "tactical" ammo. Controlled conditions, from shooting houses, under 100 yds, with me coaching, and he did very well. We moved on to bigger calibers by age 13, but it worked for us, legal and no lost deer.

Now it is a GP pest and truck rifle, aimed primarily at coyotes, feral cats and armadillos. W-W 55 gr SP's go into just over an inch and that's fine. The best factory ammo has been Rem 62 gr Match, will will go sub inch for 3 shots.

With ammo and components priced as they are, I suspect we will shoot it a good bit in practice, as .223 is much cheaper than other calibers to load and shoot.
 
I just recently bought a .223 Weatherby Vanguard with a 1:12" twist and I'm currently evaluating how accurate 55 gr. bullets are going to be for benchrest paper killing because they are the most available reasonably-priced ammo at this point in time. Any opinions are welcome.:)
 
I think the 1:9 twist is a better compromise for most people. It allows heavier bullets to be used and still can use 55 and sometimes less with great accuracy. 1K fps isn't going to make any difference shooting if you know your rifle, you can compensate for trajectory easy enough. Where you will see the difference is when you are a set it and forget kind of person with your scope, or don't use a specialized reticle to make sight corrections. Then you will favor the faster bullet and flatter trajectory.

Paper and varmints really aren't going to know the difference between the effects of a bullet at 2800 or 3800 in this caliber they will both do the job. I find with most of my rifles I tend to favor heavier bullets, because they get on target with less corrections. I might loose a little splash and red mist effect on prairie dogs but I can still get some pretty decent punts with heavy bullets. The heavy 70 grain bullets just make my rifle a more effective one past 300 yards where the shooting gets real fun.

I'd send your Leupold back to the custom shop and have them put a target knob on the elevation and start playing. You could probably run up to 60 grain bullets. Just see what you can do beyond 300 yards with a .223, I think you will be surprised.
 
I can't run 60's. I've tried and it was literally shooting 8" groups at 200 yds. My 1:12 twist 22" pencil barrel really favors these 40 gr vmax I'm feeding it. It'll shoot sub-moa at 200 with the 40's but I haven't sent it out towards 400 to see what it does at distance.
 
mdd,

That Ruger Hawkeye that I first fussed about, and now like, has a 1 in 9 twist. Though it didn't much like some of the bullets I tried (55 grain Ballistic Tip, 63 gr Sierra Varminter, 60 grain Nosler Partition), I was real successful with the 65 grain Sierra Gameking, and that bullet was what I really wanted to use in that rifle anyway since it's my general use ranch rifle and has been used on varmints the size of 200 pound feral pigs. All told, I'm happy with the 1 in 9 twist for using that bullet on both large and small varmints. If my hunting was mostly groundhogs and coyotes, I'd probably want the faster smaller bullets and the slower twist that your 223 has. I just wish that my 223 was like my 220 Swift, in that it never met a bullet it didn't like (52 gr, 53 gr, 55 gr, 60 gr, and 63 grain). It has a 1 in 14 twist.
 
mdd,

I think you are indeed fortunate that you found a great load match for your particular rifle and for your particular use.

I agree with taylorce1 that for most people the 1:9 twist is probably a more versatile choice.

I have a CZ527 Kevlar Varmint rifle in .223 with the 1:9 twist and it shoots 11 different loads for 52 grain bullets to 65 grain bullets under 0.5 MOA. I haven't finished stretching the velocity parameters with any of the bullet weights and I still haven't done much with adjusting the seating depth but that is beginning to show real promise too.

Here are the bullet weights, velocity and average group sizes at 100 yards that I have managed so far.
I was very pleasantly surprised with the versatility of this particular rifle.
I have also gotten 45 grains down to 0.577 inches at 3250 fps with Sierra Spitzer bullets, but not under the magic (for me) 0.5 inch goal. It has groups well under 0.5 for 45 grain bullet loads but none of the averages for any load are under 0.5 inches. I admit that I am just starting with the 45 and 40 grain bullets so I don't know if this rifle will also include the lighter bullets in its under 0.5 inch club. The 1:9 twist may not be quite up to that but I intend to try.

Bullet Weight -- Velocity --- Average Bullet Type
-52 grains ----- 2900 ------ 0.486 Sierra Match King
-52 grains ----- 2950 ------ 0.457 Sierra Match King
-55 grains ----- 2750 ------ 0.391 Sierra Varminter SPT
-55 grains ----- 2850 ------ 0.494 Sierra Varminter SPT
-65 grains ----- 2850 ------ 0.475 Sierra Game King
-55 grains ----- 2750 ------ 0.455 Sierra Game King
-55 grains ----- 2850 ------ 0.476 Sierra Varminter Spitzer Blitz
-60 grains ----- 2800 ------ 0.463 Sierra Varminter HP
-63 grains ----- 2700 ------ 0.421 Sierra Varminter Semi Point
-65 grains ----- 2850 ------ 0.475 Sierra Game King
-65 grains ----- 2900 ------ 0.400 Sierra Game King

Pushing a Sierra Game King 65 grain bullet out of the muzzle at 2900 fps with that kind of accuracy gives a pretty good terminal energy result for bigger varmints.
 
My CZ 527 American is very accurate, up to 300 yards; after that it's accuracy drops off considerably. I am no competition shooter though, so it may be me and not the rifle at that range. It is very reasonably priced; 700 for a new one and 350 or so for a decent bushnell scope. It has no sights so the scope is a must. I got mine used with a bushnell 3200 elite 3X10 40mm scope for 700 and it has served me well ever since.
 
40 gr projectiles are fine for shooting varmints or targets, but when it comes to shooting larger game id much rather have a 70 odd gr projectile than a 40 gr.
Also long range shooting, the heavier projectiles a better BCs so be have more predictably in the wind.
Theres an article on the web some where of a guy who manages to accurately About 1moa) shoot his 223 out to a mile, he used the biggest projectiles he could find (80 or 90grs).
 
My savage 12 BTVS 223 1:9 twist groups .500 or less with 55gr and below however with heavy 65gr and above it is a shotgun, unusual for a 1:9 never the less one never knows until you begin the reloading process, not a problem for me as i shoot target only and try different bullets for accuracy so I'm happy with it as is.
 
I guess one's preference is highly circumstantial. Trg42, I don't shoot anything with my 223 except targets and varmints. The only larger game in my part of the world are deer (pigs aren't here...yet) & 22 caliber anything is illegal for such pursuits. 243 is the smallest common caliber legally able to harvest deer in Kansas. I guess that's why if I want to shoot 70+ grain bullets I grab my 243.
 
Built Stevens 200 (still working on it, though) in 1-9. Likes 62-69 as general rule. 55s are too light for mine, that's for sure.

69 is heavy enough for a pretty good distance, so you can do the long range paper work if you want. When mine is done, I'm expecting an honest 600 yard gun. Or you can shoot the crap outta varmints and coyotes.

I don't think you loose anything practically speaking stepping up to the 60-69 range bullets. Doesn't shoot quite as flat, but still pretty flat compared to others. And you're still talking 2900 fps or more.. that's pretty good.
 
I have a Tikka T3 lite,1 in 8 twist that is devastating with 69 and 77 gr scenars,if i want to go lighter and super fast I have a 22-250 Ackley Improved for my 40 grain blitzkings ( chono at 4230f/s) :D
 
I have a scoped CZ 527 American in .223 with a single set trigger that I really enjoy. It has a 1 in 12 twist and favors 40-55 grain VMax ammo. It works well on p-dogs and ground squirrel. I have also taken a Stag Arms Model 8 in 5.56 with a 1 in 9 twist that gives me the flexibility of shooting from 52 grain to 68 grain. With a 2-7x33 scope it works well on coyote.
 
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