Less recoil than .38 Special

3

3006loader

New member
I was trying to make some light target loads for my S&W Model 19 not necessarily for low recoil, but more so I can make the gun last the rest of my life. Upon asking for your guys' advice in a separate thread, I ended up settling on this load: 4.2gr Win 231, 125 gr Plated FN bullets, CCI Small Pistol Primers, seated to an OAL of 1.410", heavy crimp.

These are the chronograph results of 10 shots:
#1 750
#2 762
#3 835 (tilted back prior to firing)
#4 594 (tilted forward)
#5 772
#6 783
#7 738
#8 458 (tilted forward)
#9 502 (tilted forward
#10 702

As you can see it is not that terrible of a low power load but the inconsistencies lead to inaccuracies. Also with velocities like 458 fps coming out I have to be sure the bullet made it down range after every shot which could get kind of tedious.

So more to the point, I was reading up about .38 short colt and it sounds like what I'm looking for. It can be made by trimming down .38 special cases to .765 inches. But I have a few questions first.

Can .38 special dies be used to size, expand, seat and crimp .38 short colt or should I just spend the $35 on the .38 short dies?

Will the decreased case volume of .38 short lead to high enough pressures that I should worry about it damaging a revolver rated for .357? If so, would I be able to trim just over .38 short colt length to create a "wildcat" somewhere in between that and .38 Special? The point is to go as short as I can without dangerously increasing pressure, but I'm not even sure how much effect less case volume has on pressure.

Anything else I should worry about? Thanks in advance
 
The entire concept seems completely ludicrous to me, unless I am wildly mistaken on the goal.

A S&W Model 19 is a fantastic revolver and you aren't likely to "wear it out" and thinking that you can or that you will is closing in on "irrational." The money spent on the volume of ammo (even on handloads) that it would require to wear out a Model 19 will grossly exceed the cost of another Model 19.

With all of that said...
Step number ONE in not wearing out a handgun is to use only LEAD bullets, and soft ones at that.
 
Sevens is right.

As long as you're shooting 38 Special rounds - even +P's - you'll never wear out your Smith 19. (I mentioned in your original post some weeks back that if you're shooting potent Magnum ammo, only then will it be time for a different discussion regarding wear.)

And if you really want to minimize barrel wear (and forcing cone errosion), shoot only lead - the softer the better. As Sevens said.

But even that is beyond necessary. Your Model 19 is going to outlive you. Shoot away and enjoy.


About 38 Short Colt:

I have loaded for it. I wanted to make some bunny fart rounds for my wife to get used to shooting. Turned out to be a bust because I can't even get her near a gun - but that's a whole 'nuther story. I digress . . .

I was reading up about .38 short colt and it sounds like what I'm looking for.
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You can make really light loads with 38SC. Although an obsolete cartridge these days, they are still used by revolver shooters in some action shooting sport disciplines with moon clips (they're too short for speedloaders).

It can be made by trimming down .38 special cases to .765 inches.
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Uh, yes. Or you can order them from Starline ;) Guess it depends on how much you value your time.

Can .38 special dies be used to size, expand, seat and crimp .38 short colt?
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Yes, and no. Kind of. The resize/decap, yes. The flair and seat, no. You can flair with a 9mm flair die (that's what I do). And I have seated with a 9mm seat die too - but it's a taper crimp.

or should I just spend the $35 on the .38 short dies?
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$35? It's been a few years, but I believe I spent something like $110 for my 38SC (RCBS) seat die - just the seat die (roll crimp). But at least it works great. I suppose it should, considering how much I paid for it.

Will the decreased case volume of .38 short lead to high enough pressures that I should worry about it damaging a revolver rated for .357?
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Potentially, yes. All things being equal, if you reduce the case's internal volume, you'll increase the pressure. Or more accurately, you'll increase the propellant's burn rate; which results in a net increase in peak pressure.

If so, would I be able to trim just over .38 short colt length to create a "wildcat" somewhere in between that and .38 Special?
Click to expand...

That's known as 38 Long Colt. I have some 38LC brass, but have never gotten to loading them just for kicks.

I'm not even sure how much effect less case volume has on pressure.
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A lot. However in most cases, the bullet usually jumps crimp upon ignition, having the net effect of increasing the case volume, and "rounds out" the pressure curve.

I only created two loadings for 38SC . . .

105gn TFP (Truncated Flat Point - a really pointy, cone shaped bullet); 2.7gn Bullseye. 730f/s - 4"; 673f/s - 3".

100gn DEWC (Double-Ended WadCutter); 1.8gn Bullseye; 548f/s - 4"; 499f/s - 3".

I used a lot less propellant for the DEWC load compared to the TFP because the DEWC sits deeper in the case - reducing internal volume. Both of these loadings were just a pure guess on my part - I had no data for reference. The TFP's were hotter than I expected; and the DEWC's were softer than I expected. I never continued pursuing either beyond that.

(The 105 TFP is a Missouri Bullet Co product; and the 100 DEWC is a Penn Bullets product. In case you wanted to know.)

By the way, I strongly recommend only using lead bullets for 38SC (or 38LC, for that matter). Velocities this low are getting into stuck bullet territory with plated/jacketed. Lead only - got it?! IMO, with revolver, any time you're under 650-ish f/s (with plated or jacketed), you're flirting with a stuck bullet. Firing a round immediately following a stuck bullet will have an adverse effect on your Model 19's wear and longevity.

But to come full-circle: I think you need to just load 38 Special ammo and enjoy. And by "enjoy," I mean both shooting and loading. 38 Special is a pleasure to load and there's tons and tons of load data available. Not to mention countless people with decades of loading experience with it to help you along. :)
 
The problem about that Sevens is that I bought it used and have no idea how many rounds are through it so far. In some spots it is in very good condition but in other spots it has some problems: slight cylinder shake, cylinder gap that increases to a max of .01" as you pull the cylinder rearward. But Even if I can't wear it out in my lifetime I still want some consistent and accurate low recoil loads. Thanks for your concern though. Nick thanks for all the useful info as always. I am probably overthinking the "wearing it down" part but still might try this out just for fun and see how it goes as far as velocity consistency is concerned. I'll get some soft lead bullets and probably experiment with case lengths between .38 SC and .38 LC.
 
Smith & Wesson is typically very good at addressing things of this nature. If you get the right person answering the phone, they may even give you a pre-paid shipping label and bring your 19 up to spec... or perhaps more likely, just give you the peace of mind you seek.

These are fantastic guns, to be enjoyed.
 
CAUTION: You are operating in the realm of sticking a bullet in the barrel with one of those powder forward shots. I did it. The powder was in there, it just didn't ignite because it was too far from the primer.

The safest and most consistent light load is a flush seated wadcutter. Cast, swaged, or coated is better than the one batch of plated wadcutters I have seen.
 
@Jim watson, I actually have experienced a squib before when I was in the early parts of making that load. The bullet got stuck just past the forcing cone and was easy to tap out. What caused it was the gun being pointed straight down at a 90 degree angle, tapped to make the powder settle, then fired. I figured I'd do a worst case scenario. the heavy crimp and deeper seating have since taken care of it but since I consider this a borderline load I still check everytime.
 
I am surprised you had trouble with that load in the 38 special. My 45 ACP pest load for years has been 4.0 grains of W231 under a 200 grain LSWC, for about 626 fps.

If memory serves I used your exact same 38 load, but with MO Bullet's 125 grain RNFP, as my 'women & kids' plinker in that caliber. Velocity was in the low sevens as I recall. Other than establishing a velocity baseline, I don't obsess over chronograph numbers with loads like this. If it'll poke a hole or knock a big dent in a 55 gallon drum, you're not gonna stick a bullet and it'll kill small game and pests just fine.
 
I've only tried this load in my Colt Diamondback but it should be even milder in my S&W Model 19.

Bullet: Missouri Bullet Company 125 gr. TCFP (.358/12 bhn/Hi-Tek coating)
Powder: Winchester 231 4.3 grs.
Primer: CCI-500
Case: Federal
LOAL: 1.445

Good%20Ammo.jpg


Diamondback%20Target.jpg
 
I went with using Trail Boss for low recoil loads. They were consistent enough, higly accurare to 25 yards, and very clean shooting as well.
 
"...make the gun last the rest of my life..." It will anyway. Unless you abuse it.
Any .38 will leave lube gunk rings in the cylinders. A short .38 will be worse. A 148 grain cast or swaged WC in a .357 case using regular .38 Special loads will not.
 
My sense is that you are misrepresenting the premise and that you are actually recoil averse, the real explanation for your interest in a light load. Still, the 19 with some barrel length should have enough mass to make shooting most 38 Special loads no big deal. I can relate, because yesterday I shot my alloy lightweight 637 Wyatt Deep cover 38 DAO snub, and the ammo was way more powerful and heavy in bullet weight than what I should have been using for this gun. You might put more thought into grips or even a smaller caliber and different gun like 32 H&R. You can also get a 38 with more mass to it.

If, as you say, the concern is for the gun's useful life, I will share that I have experienced buying a police gun with a worn out barrel, and Ruger allowing me to trade it for a deal on a replacement (which had to be returned for a new cylinder (sigh!)). If you are not over cleaning the barrel or often shooting it dirty and if using lead bullets mostly, I don't know of a reason to be so concerned, even obsessive, frankly.
 
It seems like switching powders might be a better solution. Unique is very fluffy and will give you much better loading density and reduce the position sensitivity you're having with 231. Unique will also deliver the speed you want with less pressure, which should make things easier on the gun.

Position sensitivity is even more pronounced in 357 and I've had good luck there with Unique, Bullseye, Trail Boss and Titegroup.

Using short brass can lead to less accuracy because of the longer bullet jump to the rifling.
 
While it lasts in my stash, I use SR4756 for good case fill in 38. I will be transitioning to BE-86 as similar to Unique and Power Pistol without the disadvantages.
 
Realgun don't always trust your senses then. My concerns with revolver wear are legitimate for how much I have been shooting it. Just measured cylinder gap today and it was 0.014. The gun has been shot plenty before I bought it. Low recoil is welcome however. It makes shooting guns fun for a different reason than heavy recoil does. anyways I have a pretty good idea of the different things I want to try so I'll post the results here or in a new thread in a week or so. Thanks to everyone!
 
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I understand your concern about the lifespan of your revolver. HOWEVER, I THINK you are being overly concerned, because, until the frame itself is too worn, it can be rebuilt.

But, if you're like me, you don't want to have to have that done, you want a nice soft shooting round that won't send your gun to the shop over a long period of time. I get that.

I think going to the shorter case is simply going the wrong way. You can save yourself all the trouble of having to buy expensive (rare) brass, or the work of shortening standard .38 Special, and the hassle and expense of needing different dies.

The answer is simple, and easy, you just need to use a powder that fill the case more. OR there are a couple tricks you can use with small charges of fast powder to hold it in place, so you don't get the drastic change in velocity after pointing the muzzle up or down.

You can hold the powder back against the primer with a paper wad, or you can use an inert filler. The old "classics" are kapok fiber and cream of wheat. (one or the other ;))

The best choice when possible is to simply use a bulkier powder.

Lead bullets and standard pressure loads (or less) will allow the gun to last as long as it can last. With that level of load, the wear on your gun will be mechanical wear (same wear you would get from dry firing) and whatever dings & scratches you put in the finish.

Barrels will, eventually, wear out, even with soft lead slugs. However, I would be surprised to see any significant wear until you get beyond 30-40,000 rounds, if then. Wear in the action from cycling will probably be a more important factor in a medium frame .38 special revolver.
 
Hahaha...
Let's say 30,000 rounds. If bullets were -FREE- and powder was -FREE- and time to load the ammo was -FREE- and the time and energy to shoot 30,000 rounds was -FREE- and even if you got primers for $30 per thousand and no tax... that's $900 just in primers.

$900 buys a most any replacement Model 19 unless it's famous or gold plated.
 
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