Les Baer redux

Hawkeye

New member
Goodness, what a hot thread! It locked while I was reading it.

Let me quote Brian Bilby: I think Baers problem is that they build the guns way too tight, don't test fire them to check function and then tell the customer to fire it a lot to break it in. Well, that's bunk. A gun doesn't need to be that tight to be accurate. I know. I build my package guns to be tight, but the slide can be retracted with normal effort and I test fire every gun with at least four different types of ammo and bullet styles to insure reliability before finishing. After finishing it only needs about 3 mags to break in then it will work so long as you do your job.

I'm sure not going to argue with Brian! I have two Les Baer's. The first was an early Premier II. I waited a LONG time for this pistol, and it was worth it. It took about 200 rounds for the pistol to loosen up to the point it wasn't a struggle to strip. It's seen LOTS of rounds since then, and it continues be incredibly accurate and reliable. It was worth every cent, and I doubt I'll ever find a pistol that I would trade it for.

Based on that good experience, I bought a Concept VIII about a year ago. I first noticed that the slide stop was remarkably hard to disengage--certainly a two finger effort. (Yes, I typically "sling shot" the slide to release it). I then took it out to shoot, and the firing pin stop fell out during the second magazine of ammo. I was not a happy camper.

I sent in back promptly to Les Baer and also e-mailed them. To their credit, they promptly fixed the problem and shipped it back to me (on their nickel). At the time, I was fairly annoyed to have a high-dollar pistol that wasn't in perfect shape at delivery. I remember thinking that if I were running the shop, I'd have thrown an extra magazine in the package. At least I didn't have to pay their shipping back!

The rumor I have heard (and if somebody actually knows, please correct my ignorance) is that the Les Baer shop started out with true pistolsmiths assembling the guns. For whatever reason, most of these guys left and Baer's ended up hiring and training people to assemble the guns. Now I have no problem with that, if the guns are just as perfect at completion. Since they do not seem to be, I'm amazed that Les Baer's shop isn't taking each pistol out and firing a couple magazines of ammo just to check function. Seems like it would be cheaper and simpler then dealing with problems.

I'd agree with the suggestions to deal with the smaller shops with good reputations. I had the pleasure to meet the two gentleman at Rock River Arms last August, and was so impressed by their work that I'm expecting another 1911 in the next month or so. I'm not crazy enough to assume it will be perfect, but I'm pretty confident. Even if it isn't, I sure know who I need to talk to.
 
etc said:
"Hey Rik---I can have my opinion based on my experience. Drivel and crock are not words that impress."

Impressive or not, they applied.

"If you dont agree with my thoughts,thats ok. Us firearm enthusiasts should be on the same side,but,that would make for a dull forum,I guess."

Just because someone likes firearms doesn't mean 1) they know much about them 2) they are necessarily a good guy (though I am not saying this applies to you, I am merely arguing against the point that all firearms enthusiasts are necessarily on the same side)
and 3) that they are physiologically incapable of posting something that is poorly thought out and downright silly.

"And,uh,see how many sigs and berettas, (% wise) have the problems 1911's do."

You ignore my point, unsurprisingly. SIG..BERETTA...those are brand names. 1911 is a design, made by many. Why don't we look at SIG knock-offs like those made in Eastern Europe or South Africa? Why don't we look at Maadi Helwan knock-offs of the Beretta? Bet those percentages go up, problem wise. But even that isn't a fair comparison. How many makers have built 1911s through the last EIGHTY YEARS? Dozens? And what quality parts did they use? All different right?
And how many build them now? I would say at least a dozen manufacturers, maybe more. Are they all the SAME quality?
How many manufacturers currently build Glocks? How many build Berettas? SIGs?
Once you get past the frankness of my remarks, you might try addressing the argument.
 
When Les Baer was heading up Springfield's Custom Shop, he called me (then & now I was/am in FL) to go to work for them (Custom Shop) to fit their barrels. Needless to say, I declined, rather deciding to build complete pistols that have the real quality of being built one-at-a-time for the discerning customer/owner.
Kurt V. Wala
Kurt's Kustom Firearms www.kurtkustom.qpg.com/
 
As a long time retailer of Les Baer as well as other custom 1911 style handguns, and part of the start of this thread (I'm the dealer who sold the gun). I feel another post is necessary.

I've sold probably 250 of Les Baer Custom guns since I started with them several years ago. About 100 or so new and the rest used or what I call trade guns (customer traded it in irregardless of whether the seller shot it or not, you would not believe how many new never shot guns are shot plenty buy sellers). The gun I sold was new from a distributor where I bought it, not from another dealer or "trade gun".

Of the new guns. A few went back for warranty service (about three for to long of break in as per customer desires). Had one customer in particular who bought a lightweight and when the customer cleaned the gun. He removed the grip bushings each time. He only retorqued them to 20 lbs. Gee! wonder why they stripped out (Steel screw on aluminum frame, 20 lb torque, duh.). Bear reseated, reset, oversize bushings, and reshipped this twice to the same customer. No way on a third time.

My point. Not all problems are gun problems.

I will not discuss the gun in question. Other than saying the gun in question was built for a right hander. The buyer is a left hander. Left handers have slightly different handling characteristics. (currently this is a right hand world, maybe after the revolution).

As all of you notice, each "gunsmith" or "gunsmith shop" has it, lets call it style, on the "shops' style of custom gun.

Therefore each gunsmith or shop then will have its own distinct, lets call it signature.

Baer is tight guns. Accurate with a guarantee

Wilson Combat well built, well made, No **** warranty on anything. The tu-tone gun is what they are known for.

Novak, Fully Reliable gun. Best sights on the market, With a distinct style who has made his tactical sight the one others copy.

Rock River. They will also have their distinct signature as starting to show by reading this forum.

Mark Morris custom. Left hand twist barrel

Again point. The style attracts type of shooter and or a group of shooters.

Baer seems to attract more of the accuracy or bullseye style shooters.

Wilson seems to attract more of the action style shooters.

Novak seems to attract more of the professional shooter who carry for a living.

I draw these observations from sales, not from news or magazine article or any of the otheer marketing hype (propaganda).

Point again. Style will somtimes conflict with type of shooter.

A pure bullseye gun ain't worth a darn for action shooting. Different shooting conditions. Conversely the same will apply.

Each shooter is unique and different in his own way. Hand size, left-hander, experience, style of shooting, etc.

Point to this whole post.

You the buyer do the research. Find what fits you. Examine your needs. Get what fits your needs.

Baer build a good gun. So does Wilson. So does Novak. So does Rock River. So does Brian Bilby. So does....I don't need to continue.
There ain't no best gun out there.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters
http://www.pt-partners.com

Drive a liberal nuts, buy a gun, in fact buy two.
 
As the one who originally started this, let me say a few more things.

I sent my email to Baer last Thursday expressing my complaints about the warranty service that wasn't. Today is Tuesday and I still haven't gotten anything from Baer. If the customer service dept in my company got a letter like mine, it would have prompted a call to the consumer to try and work things out. Obviously that isn't going to happen here.

I want to mention again I don't feel all Baer products are bad. Guns are machines, and not all machines work perfectly the first time. My original complaint was paying for the shipping on warranty service, but if he had fixed the gun I would have never started this thread. I only started this after I emailed him complaining that nothing had been fixed and got no response, and I still have a gun that's not right.

I have dealt with other smiths who have handled things differently. Bill at Cylinder and Slide is a good example. I bought a full size CST from him and I also bought a lightweight Adventurer. The lightweight was one of the the first and it cracked where the frame was cut down and weled back together. Bill took it back, tried several options in house, and ended up refunding my money, no questions asked when I got tired of waiting. Two things here, he wouldn't release a product until it worked, and he gave me a full refund, even for some extras I tacked on above the base model. I was impressed. I should have kept the CST. This is the kind of service I expect when buying guns in the $1500 range.

Baer could have raised the price of his new guns an extra $5 this year to cover the cost of warranty shipping the few that have problems and get sent back. Thay way he wouldn't be out the money and the guy who has a problem doesn't get even more upset. If you have a quality control problem, deal with it. Train your new guys by pointing out the problems and teaching them so it goes away. Everyone is happy. Baer makes an extra 5 bucks on new guns, his reputation improves, new gunsmiths get better, we get great guns.

Sounds simple to me. I'm sure it isn't that easy but I believe it would be a worthwhile goal.

Mark
------------------
We are the people our parents warned us about.

[This message has been edited by mark lee (edited February 22, 2000).]
 
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