LEO's & off duty carry

M

Mikep

Inactive
I recently attended a three day firearms instructor training update at another city within my state. This training is presented each year by the firearms instructor association to which I belong. One of the motels there had been selected by the association as the spot to conduct our business meeting, etc.

Needless to say, there were a lot of police officers registered at his motel, which is a large facility. I took my wife along on this trip and as we were checking in, I noticed several officers enter the lobby. I immediately noticed that they were officers, not because they were familiar to me, but because they clearly made no effort to conceal their profession. They had holstered guns and badges on their hips in plain view for all to see. No effort was made to conceal their hardware with a shirt or jacket.

My immediate reaction was that these guys were badge heavy hotdogs trying to send a message to anyone within sight. My wife felt the same way. I was frankly embarrassed for them as I watched several citizens in the lobby stare at these individuals and comment among themselves. I don't know what was said but I can imagine.

My department requires that an off duty officer carry his or her gun and badge, however it must be concealed sufficiently to avoid unduly alarming the public. In addition, anyone with common sense would realize that should an off duty officer encounter some individual who doesn't particularly care for cops and decides to do something about it, the officer probably does not have communication capability i.e., portable radio to summon backup, assuming he is in his own jurisdiction to begin with, and I would assume he is not wearing his ballistic vest either.

These thoughts lead me back to the assumption that these guys were hotdogs who either had no clue as to what the reaction was around them, or did it with that very intention in mind.

The association publishes a quarterly newsletter and I plan to submit an article to the editor for inclusion in the next issue.

Now for the question;

Am I way out of line here, or does anyone else feel as I do?
 
Maybe a little off base IMO. What state?

I think that it should be perfectly acceptable for anyone even LEOs to carry openly or concealed. But this probably did not happen in the state of AZ.
 
Personally, I have never carried in this way off duty, but I have quite often during the summer when working with CID guys who's habit it is to do the same. When in Rome....

Anyway, I do think your assertions are off-base. In fact, I think you are 100% tactically correct. You may even be right about the "message" that such a practice sends. But, I wouldn't try to shove your views down anyone's throats. If you are planning to write somehting critical of this mode of carry, on or off duty, Iwould suggest approching the issue from a very broad perspective and working the logical negative facts into your essay. Rather than state (as you bascially do above) "all cops who do this are foolish and come across as hotdogs", I would suggest a more subtle treatment of the subject... in the long run many more LEOs will appreciate the article that fairly points out a potential problem than one that simply criticizes a practice that an "outsider" can easily be said to "not understand" or be jealous of...

Just some thoughts... remember, I agree with you.
 
Is open carry for everybody a excepted practice where you were? If so then this might be a poor choice from the tactics veiwpoint (what color condition were they in) however, if open carry is also somthing the general public does on a daily basis then why not?

On the other hand if open carry is NOT allowed to the general public they should be carrying discretely.

What was their attitude like? Were they loud and obnixous or carrying themselvs in a professional manner???

As long as they are acting professional and do not bring discredit down on the profession for acting like jerks and the general public can also carry open why not?

If a member of the general public is openly carrying in white could this also not present the same kinds of problems that a officer openly carrying in white also could create?

If it's good for the goose then it's good for the gander!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Their right to carry? Unquestionably so.
Their need to cary? I have no idea.

The worrisome point for me would be, does it make them a target for BGs?
 
I don't believe it is tactically sound to advertise that you're a cop or for that matter for anyone with a ccw permit to advertise being armed. If something heavy should go down, anybody that the bad guy sees as a threat will be he first one to get hit. The only time I ever carry openly in civilian clothing is if I take my suit coat off in court and everyone knows who the police are there anyway.
 
I would like to thank everyone for their responses and thoughts.

My submission to the newsletter will be toned down somewhat.

Thanks again.
 
Mikep,

Just a thought on this one.

I am a retired LEO with 25 years on the job. A firearms instructor, still current as an adjunct instructor. I've seen my share of "hotdogs" on the job unfortunately for all of us.

Now, I see your point and agree with you in theory.

But, these guys were displaying their badges as well as their firearms. There was no mistaking them for anything but LEO as far as your description goes. They may have been considered "on-duty" by their agency and attending this function as such. When I was working, going to a school, seminar, etc. was considered "on the job", not off-duty.

They may have been perminate plain clothes detectives and just "at home" with open display of the weapons not giving it a second thought. ??

Yes, in general public they might have put a jacket over the weapons so not to draw attention to themselves.

I guess no one dialed 9-1-1 and reported men with guns!

And, who knows what their agencies policy is on "carry".

IMHO...

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Jim

"New Jersey... The First Communist State in The Union"
 
The last six years I worked for the sheriff I was in plain clothes. There was no requirement to "hide" your weapon as plain clothes assignment was not a stealthy assignment, but merely a convenience for the type of work we did. We wore our badge on our belt in front of the pistol so we were readily identifiable. Our community is used to it and I don't think I have ever heard anything said.

Off duty is a different matter. Since I probably didn't have a radio, I did not want to be identified as a deputy. Most of the other deputies were the same way.



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Bruce Stanton
CDR, USN-Ret.
Sgt., Kings Co. Sheriff - Ret.
 
My department requires that our weapons be concealed when in plain clothes or off duty.

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster
 
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