LEO Sources: Paris Terrorist Attack Gun ...

[pnac]

Judicial Watch is reporting that one of the guns used in the Paris attack came from Phoenix. One of the F&F guns perhaps?

The investigative follow up of the Paris weapon consisted of tracking a paper trail using a 4473 form, which documents a gun’s ownership history by, among other things, using serial numbers. The Phoenix gun owner that the weapon was traced back to was found to have at least two federal firearms violations—for selling one weapon illegally and possessing an unregistered automatic—but no enforcement or prosecutorial action was taken against the individual. Instead, ATF leaders went out of their way to keep the information under the radar and ensure that the gun owner’s identity was “kept quiet,” according to law enforcement sources involved with the case. “Agents were told, in the process of taking the fully auto, not to anger the seller to prevent him from going public,” a veteran law enforcement official told Judicial Watch.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2...un-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix/

 

[Aguila Blanca]

(a) How would a gun from F&F make its way from Mexico to Paris? Not impossible, but certainly implausible.

(b) A single 4473 in no way documents a firearm's ownership history. It documents one sale, at one point in the firearm's history.

I love a good conspiracy theory, but I need more confirmation before I'll buy into this one.

 

[carguychris]

That article is heavy on the weasel words.

One of the guns used in the November 13, 2015 Paris terrorist attacks came from Phoenix, Arizona where the Obama administration allowed criminals to buy thousands of weapons illegally in a deadly and futile “gun-walking” operation known as “Fast and Furious.”...

It’s not clear if the [ATF], which is responsible for cracking down on the illegal use and trafficking of firearms, did this because the individual was involved in the Fast and Furious gun-running scheme...

The author infers that the gun may be connected to F&F because it was traced to the Phoenix area, and then more or less admits that there may be no connection at all.

...When asked about the ROI report linking the weapon used in Paris to Phoenix, Ray said “I’m not familiar with the report you’re referencing.” Judicial Watch also tried contacting the Phoenix ATF office, but multiple calls were not returned.

Given that the ATF is not returning the author's phone calls, what factual basis does he or she have to infer that a connection to F&F exists, other than geographical proximity?

The Phoenix connection may be sheer coincidence. I smell speculation.

The Phoenix gun owner that the weapon was traced back to was found to have at least two federal firearms violations—for selling one weapon illegally and possessing an unregistered automatic—but no enforcement or prosecutorial action was taken against the individual. Instead, ATF leaders went out of their way to keep the information under the radar and ensure that the gun owner’s identity was “kept quiet,” according to law enforcement sources involved with the case.

If you read this passage carefully, it seems that the Paris weapon that was traced was NOT the same weapon as the "unregistered automatic". The latter was involved in a previous violation by the same person, who might be connected to F&F. Or not.

I'm thinking there might could be more than one group of people trafficking in illegal guns in a city of 1.5 million that's close to a major land border.

A single 4473 in no way documents a firearm's ownership history. It documents one sale, at one point in the firearm's history.

Exactly. The article strongly suggests that the Phoenix buyer may be involved in some sort of gunrunning scheme, but there's no apparent reason to conclude that the buyer knew anything about where the weapon was going after he/she sold it, nor that he/she had any connection to F&F.

I love a good conspiracy theory, but I need more confirmation before I'll buy into this one.

+1. Occam's razor.

 

[doofus47]

If the firearm was sold "off book," how is is traceable via 4473 documentation?

Maybe the most recently dated 4473 with that serial number combined with [check box: pistol) combo was in that FFL's possession? Which has me scratching my head a bit. Do FFLs have to do 4473 forms to take possession of a pistol?


This thinking stuff has made me lost again:
So ATF went to EVERY FFL in the US and searched their 4473 forms for that combo of serial/pistol and then back-checked models against the one used in Paris and then ordered dates until they ended up in Phoenix?

OR: the ATF searched its database of digitally archived 4473 forms for that combo and then checked date and manually checked the model against possible duplicate serial number hits. Which means there's a digitally archived database of 4473 forms out there (legal or no) that is being researched. That's the most plausible way that this investigation could happen barring crap-tons of available manpower.

That idea makes me most un-happy about my conjecturing.

 

[carguychris]

Do FFLs have to do 4473 forms to take possession of a pistol?

No. However, FFLs record all transfers in their record books, and for a new firearm, those records lead directly back to the manufacturer or importer.

So ATF went to EVERY FFL in the US and searched their 4473 forms for that combo of serial/pistol and then back-checked models against the one used in Paris and then ordered dates until they ended up in Phoenix?

No. Most likely, the ATF went to the manufacturer or importer and found out which FFL originally bought the weapon. (The linked article never identifies the type of firearm, so we don't know it was a pistol.) If more than one FFL was involved, the ATF followed the trail through their record books. The FFL at the point of retail sale presumably produced the 4473 that identifies the original buyer.

The original buyer of the firearm bought it in Phoenix and had been previously investigated for other federal gun law violations.

(FWIW the previous sentence seems to wholly summarize the factual bases of the linked article. )

If the firearm was sold "off book," how is is traceable via 4473 documentation?

Tracing a random gun through subsequent retail sales using 4473s is very difficult to nearly impossible; it's generally practical only when investigators have a pretty good idea where the gun was most recently resold, thus narrowing the pool of potential FFLs.

Point (b) is Aguila's post is key; generally, as more time elapses and the firearm changes hands, the more useless the original 4473 becomes to investigators.

 

[carguychris]

One other thing...

...possible duplicate serial number hits...

The 68 GCA requires manufacturers and importers to use unique serial numbers for all firearms of a certain type and caliber/gauge. For instance, once S&W produces a 9mm semi-auto pistol with the serial number ABC1234, they can never produce another 9mm semi-auto pistol with that serial# again. (On a related note, this is the reason that most gunmakers now put letters in their serial numbers, since more combinations become possible.)

This was not the case before 1968, but records from that long ago are now basically useless anyway.

 

[Pond James Pond]

What?!

I don't believe this is true. Every report I have found say the same thing and it does not involve Phoenix.

The guns used in the Paris attacks were ex-military, originally lifted from a Serbian arms cache but floating on the black-market ever since. In addition to that there were (somewhat) legally-bought deactivated guns (Tokarev pistol) that was subsequently reactivated.

Although legal to buy, the deactivated Tok came from a site now recognised as passing on guns that are only deactivated in the most basic way and easy to return to full function.

 

[carguychris]

The guns used in the Paris attacks were ex-military, originally lifted from a Serbian arms cache but floating on the black-market ever since. In addition to that there were (somewhat) legally-bought deactivated guns (Tokarev pistol) that was subsequently reactivated.

FWIW my Google-Fu last night seemed to reflect this as well.

ALL of the reports stating that a gun used in Paris originated in the United States seemed to refer back to the Judicial Watch report. IOW there is no independent confirmation.

I'll try to keep an eye on this story. At the moment, I still find it dubious.

 

[doofus47]

Thanks for the clarifications.
I"ll take off my tin foil hat now.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

(a) How would a gun from F&F make its way from Mexico to Paris? Not impossible, but certainly implausible.

Well, on the surface...
A big chunk of US heroin supply comes from Afghanistan and ends up in Mexico before being crossed into the US. If you have trade one direction you probably have it the other also. Not the normal flow of guns either, but not entirely implausible.

 

[44 AMP]

I find it quite implausible. Not impossible, but very implausible.

For one thing, the report doesn't even mention WHAT gun was "tracked". Rifle? pistol? You would think that if they tracked the gun, they would at least know what it was....

No crowing about an assault weapon, no mention of an AR or an AK, no mention of the gun, at all, other than "it was tracked to...."

The source is a "veteran law enforcement official"....

one, unconfirmed report. (so far, anyway)

That's the problem with conspiracy theories like this, the source cannot be revealed (to protect them) so we cannot independently verify anything.

Fast and Furious required FFL dealers to sell to people they otherwise would have denied, so our government could "track" them, I suppose to the hands of Mexican gangs. Unfortunately our agents "lost track".

Now what did those people actually buy from regular gunshops in the SW??

Ordinary guns, not machine guns, not rocket launchers only the same guns any of the rest of us could buy, any day of the week. The most warlike thing they could have gotten would be a standard SEMI AUTO AR or AK, or something like that. Useful, true, but not the full military grade hardware some people seem to think "we" sold to criminals.

Several of the guns used in the Paris attack have been traced to Eastern European sources, before they "went missing" and later turned up on the black market.

How LIKELY do you think it is, that Middle Eastern terrorists, buying off the European black market would get a semi auto rifle (IF that's what the "tracked gun in the linked report actually is) smuggled from the western hemisphere, when all their other arms came from eastern Europe????

I'll believe this one when its documented and proven by independent 3rd party verification. It might be true. I might also win the lottery jackpot. Right now, I'd put better odds on buying a winning ticket.

 

[SaxonPig]

Once a gun starts circulating in the black market it wind up anywhere although it seems highly unlikely that terrorists in France would want a semi auto gun smuggled from the U.S. when they have access to all the full auto weapons they want from many countries much closer to France.

 

[carguychris]

^^^^ Compared to an EBR, I think it's more likely that an international user might seek to illegally obtain a 9x19 pistol from United States, as most Warsaw Pact arms stockpiles presumably contain mostly 9x18 and 7.62x25 pistols.

Based on the posts I've seen from pistol owners in other countries, 9mm pistols are relatively inexpensive in the United States, making smuggling potentially attractive as a matter of simple economics – higher profits on resale.

That said, I still find the original report dubious.

 

[armedleo]

An ATF trace begins at the beginning; the moment the gun leaves the manufacturer and to whence it was shipped; normally a distributor or large scale dealer. And from that distributor or dealer begins the tracing of who last bought the gun. An ATF trace is laborious and time consuming. But, no, they don't go to every gun shop FFL in Phoenix knocking on doors. And I would guess that the Parisian authorities have hooked up with the FBI and they've likely entered every recovered shell casing and projectile (identifiable) and entered those images into NIBIN for connections to other crimes or homicides.