LEO attitudes on weapons carry?

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hankrearden98

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I have a question for all of you street cops out there. What is your attitude regarding citizen weapons carry for self defense, legally or illegally? What is the attitude of other officers and agencies in your experience? Do you feel obligated, or does your agency require you to take action against those carrying illegally?

Here in central Oklahoma, law enforcement, the DAs and courts have generally not been interested in enforcing these laws as long as the person is not behaving criminally or irresponsibly. They know that they cannot protect individuals, and have the integrity not prevent individuals from being able to defend themselves, regardless of what the Legislature says.

How is it in other parts of the country?
 
Here in NJ, if they pull you over for speeding and you have some JHP in your glove box, and you aren't going "between the range and your house" you are considered illegally transporting weapons and are subject to big... problems.

I suspect any LEO which sees you with a concealed or exposed weapon (in NJ, there is no difference) will be obliged to call in the SWAT team, an attack chopper, and four squads of backup.

After all, this is the town where my local friendly LEO pulled me over for doing 30 in a 25 zone and the judge threw 3 points (or was it 4?) and a $100 fine at me.

This the same judge who was arrested twice for DUI.

Cool, huh? I ought to move to a free country, don't you think?

-Jon
 
Greetings To All; First off, attitudes vary
with the individual. This applies to LEO's
as well. Being a former veteran LEO myself,
I tried to treat each case on an individual
basis. Knowing all the facts is essential:
1) Knowing that you have a gun in your possession, 2) Knowing for what purpose you
have the gun, 3) Knowing YOUR attitude towards authority, 4) Then we will decide
if you are carrying legally or illegally?
And even if you are carrying illegally, and
can explain for what purpose you are doing
so probably would have a bearing on the case,
if I were the LEO involved? For instance,
a new firearm purchase and receipt thereof
and you are on your way to the range to try
it out; and for some reason I stopped you
and you explained to me thoroughly that
you had a weapon in your possession, that
was legally purchased and that you had applied for a CCW license (and had proper
paper work to prove both); then I most likely
would let you proceed to your destination.
Or if, a female is working downtown in a
known "hostile" neighborhood and she is
armed but has made the necessary applications
to the proper offical's, then I am going to
let her proceed as well. I probably would
escort the female to her destination; as we
are trained "TO PROTECT AND SERVE". I could
go on forever with the pro's and con's; but
this will serve as a brief explanation to
what law enforcement is all about, in my
opinion. After all, I am still alive after
20+ years in the business; so I must have
done something right? FOOTNOTE: The firearms
and individuals involved would definitely
be checked through NCIC. If a vechile was
involved, then it also would be checked on
The National Crime Information Computer.

Best Wishes and Good Shooting To All,
Ala Dan
 
Speaking of concealed knives... what's the definition? My Spyderco clipit is readily visible clipped to my pocket, and anyone who knows what to look for knows what it is. It's no more concealed than a buck folder in a leather sheath on the belt. This meets my definition of "not concealed". Opinions? How the heck would you carry a folding knife so that it's not concealed, without putting it into something (pocket, sheath etc) or clipped somewhere?
 
I live in Arizona and had an interesting encounter with LE I'd like to share.

About one year ago while on my way to work I was (justifiably) stopped by a DPS motorcycle officer. I admit, I was speeding about 15 above the posted limit as I was late for work.

Just before I reached my freeway exit I noticed the officer and promptly pulled over. I shut my engine off and began fishing through my walled for my license. I pulled nearly every other piece of plastic out before reaching it. The last card to come out before my license was my CCW permit. I discreetly moved this to another slot and retrieved my license.

Shortly after handing the officer my license, the officer said he noticed my CCW and asked if I had a weapon in the car. I said "yes." The officer then demanded to see my weapon.

The officer allowed me to exit the cramped confines of my '98 mustang GT and retrieve my audit bag which was crammed tighly between the rear of my front seat and the front of my rear seat. I UNlocked my audit bag and opened it for the officer to retrieve my fanny bag containing my Sig P220.

The officer told me to take my seat and wait. I did for 15 minutes. I noticed in the rear view mirror that the officer was running my serial number to ensure the weapon was not stolen. Now, I was royally pissed!!

To let you know, I was wearing a full pin stripped suit, wing-tipped dress shoes and tie. I was extremely well grommed--looking the part of a public accountant (which I am). (read: I did not look like a ruffian)

Now don't misunderstand, I am very thankful for those who put on a uniform and do their best to make this a safer world to live in. In fact, I almost became an officer my self after graduating with my B.S. in accoutancy. I successfully completed the entire police testing process, but passed on going to the academy as I wanted to try my hand at being a CPA passing the CPA exam and all.

Further, I know full well that an officer cannot take ANY routine traffic stop and treat it as routine. An officer will wind up dead. Also, I know that not all criminals look, well, like criminals.

However, in this instance the officer had absolutely NO probable cause to search my car based simply upon a state issued permit. I will pit my criminal justice knowledge against any LEO as I minored in criminal justice and have half a dozen friends on various depts.

I dutifully, politely and promptly complied with all the officers directions. But this was at best, illegal and unprofessional. After learning that my weapon was clean the officer promptly and disappointedly (I could tell) returned the weapon to me. I thanked him for my ticket and quietly drove away.

It's good that officer had no idea of what was going through my mind. Being a businessman, I'm good at containing my emotions and outward appearance when I'm LESS than pleased.
 
I guess I'll share this as well.

Several years ago, I lived in Gainesville FL. I began to deliver pizza as a full-time income while going to school full-time as well. Unfortunately, this was just a year or two after the Gainesville student murders, so needless to say, I and my fellow delivery guys were always cautious.

After a few robberies of fellow delivery drivers, I decided to get a CCW. Without incident, it was issued, and I began to carry a Colt Officers .45 in a fanny pack. I'm happy to say that I never had to draw that weapon.

Being a delivery driver, I did manage to get a few tickets. The law in FL states that if you are carrying a concealed weapon, you must notify any officer at the time of a stop for his/her information.

I would say that telling an officer of carrying a concealed weapon, and subsequently doing checks on that weapon saved me from some traffic violations. I would say that before my CCW, I received 4 tickets to each one warning, whereas after I got my CCW, it was one ticket to 4 warnings.

It seems that bringing up the CCW with the LEO distracted them from the initial charge. Once they did their checks, saw that I was lawfully licensed to carry a concealed weapon (which meant I went through the background checks), the'd usually get more lienient regarding the traffic infraction.

Just my experience.



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Keith
http://www.ws6.com
 
Keith,

Thanks for relating your story. As for Arizona, we have no requirement to inform an officer of our CCW weapon. As long as the reason for the contact with the officer has no correlation with your possession of a weapon.

The few instances I've had contact with officers (other than my friends)have always been positive. I believe this particular cowboy was one of those liberal types who never handled a weapon prior to his academy training.

Interestingly, Phoenix had a officer, Mark Atkinson, murdered in the line of duty recently.

Here's a summary of what happened:
Officer Atkinson was shot and killed after being ambushed by suspected drug traffickers. Officer Atkinson was driving a marked patrol car while following the suspects, who turned a corner, stopped their vehicle, and waited for Officer Atkinson. As he turned the corner the three suspects opened fire, striking him twice in the head, killing him. A citizen who witnessed the incident engaged the suspects in a gunfight with his own weapon, seriously wounding one. The other two suspects fled but were later arrested. Officer Atkinson is survived by his wife and six-month-old child.

Shortly after this incident, the Phoenix Police department issued this armed civilian a certificate for the purchase of a new Glock to replace the Glock 17 used to stop these maggots. To quote the official statement made to the news by the Phoenix police department "... this is one civilian we do not want to see disarmed..."

DesertRat
 
Covert Mission , damned good point! You may have hit on something that can help me. Lets expand on this further in good detail. Open carry of knifes , I believe is legal. So , as long as the knife is in my pocket with the "clip" on the outside of the pocket visible. Since only the clip but not the knife is exposed , IS this considered open carry and not concealed ??? I hope this is true because it will make me LEGAL !!!!!

[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited October 01, 1999).]
 
Knife carry is a state by state thing. In Texas a knife may be carried, open or concealed, fixed or folder, if the blade length is not over 5.5". Swords, switches, daggers, and over 5.5" blades are called 'illegal knives'. In Oklahoma they seem to use a 4" requirement and a folder for concealed carry, anything bigger or fixed bladed you need to be hiking, camping, or hunting. I cannot find the 4" limit in any of the laws. In Ca. I hear that 4" is the limit and if it is over 2" it cannot be concealed, got to wear it on the belt. The Buck 110 Folding Hunter is a popular belt knife but the Schrade Bear Paw is illegal.
 
Jeff, in Oklahoma there is no legal blade lenght requirement. Some municipalities, Oklahoma City is one, have ordinances prohibiting blades over four inches. State law is silent on the subject. Fixed blade knives must be carried unconcealed and only while hunting, fishing, ect. Folding knives are legal regardless of size, even a big six inch ColdSteel Nogales Clip Point. That Oklahoma City ordinance applies to all knives within city limits. Of course, it is almost never enforced unless one is used in a bar fight or something. Can you imagine the Oklahoma City Police Department raiding Wal Mart, K-Mart, Homeplace, anyone who possesses a knife with a blade greater than four inches? Can you imagine appealing a municipal conviction to District Court and everyone wondering why the retailers are allowed to sell such evil, dangerous, and useless objects while the poor individual is not allowed to possess his purchase? Certainly such a case would draw a good deal of media attention.
 
As an Active LEO of over 19 years I will agree with the earlier statement that How and Officer Reacts to a CCW, depends on the Officer ( years of service, attitude about firearms and the law, and personality)the Citizen, his attitude, his circumstains, and how he reacts to the Officer. There are other more minor influances (SP?)also. Also In Iowa it may depend what county you are from. Iowa is a MAY Issue State, there for if you appear as a citizen wishing to protect yourself for BG's from a County where permit are near imposible to get, I would probably cut you more slack than if you were from this County, where if you pass the course and the background check you are issued a Permit. If you are from my County of an other that I know issues like this county You will go to Jail because if you don't have a permit there is likely a very good reason.
If you have a Permit form another State I will probably honor it, no it's not legal here by I will likely honor it anyway. But don't bet your vacation that any other Officer will.
AS to knifes, if it is a pocket knife keep it in your pocket. A clip knife no problem. I may ask to see it, I enjoy good knives. (PLEASE hand it to me closed) Switchblades are unlawful here, as are balisongs for carry not to own or keep in a tackle box. (go figure)
As has been said, it varys State to State, Officer to Officer, and person to person, so don't use me as and excuse if you find your self in trouble in Iowa.
 
Any LEO's follow the 2nd Amendment (the supreme law of the land) instead of local law?

Raymond, you have been missed. Good to see you.

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Byron Quick
 
Am I the only person who thinks that its crazy the way we have so many different firearms regs for which state or even which county you happen to live in. Do we live in one country or not ? Why should someone in ultra safe North Dakota be able to defend themselves against an armed attacker when someone in New York who has a significantly greater chance of being assaulted not be allowed to use anything stronger than harsh language. We need some kind of national policy, I think we live in a mixed up place sometimes.

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Mike H
 
We already have a national policy on weapons and self-defense--the 2nd Amendment. The last thing we need is more of a national policy on guns. Think about it.
 
Here in Maryland, the law states that carrying a concealed weapon is illegal except for a common pen knife. So I interpret that to mean that I can carry a folding knife totally concealed and still be within the law. Of course, there are other laws about intent. Also you could be justified in the carrying of other weapons if a tribunal deems that you were in danger.

Axel

P.S. I am not a lawyer, but my wife is (:
 
In the Philippines:-

Legally speaking, carrying a gun outside residence without [Permit to Carry Firearm Outside Residence "PTCFOR"] can be apprehended, and caused revocation of the licensed. The police can charged you also and you'll be fined.

As the rest said, it depends on the apprehending officer. If he is lenient, he will advised you not to carry outside residence anymore and have it your PCTFOR process. If he has other evil motive then that is enough for you to be charged in court.

Also, it depends on your social standing and affiliations. If you just newly purchased a pistol and have no permit to carry yet but you're a member of Gun Club, and you will have competition or target practice, the Military or Police officer in the club can advise you to bring it with you to the range. It happened to me when we have a competition and my permit to carry is still in process, I brought the matter to them and they told me to bring it and they will be responsible if there is such a problem.

So it depends on the personality of the person.

Thanks.
 
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