Legalize open carry in Florida!

STITCH

New member
Unfortunately Florida does not allow the open carry of firearms (in public, unless hunting, fishing or shooting at a range). As most of you know by now Gov. Bush passed a new gun law this year relieving us of our duty to flea,
well while he is on a "pro gun kick" I thought now would be a good time to
introduce a change to the open carry law also. How would I go about pushing the idea with the government , and who is with me?
 
Open Carry

I'm all into people being free to do as they please, and therefore would support your right to open carry.

Though, why would you want to?

A: It makes you a target of anyone who wishes to steal a gun

B: It creates a situation where the criminal will more likely kill you before you get a chance to react, rather than possibly hold you at gunpoint or leave you with more time to act. You give a criminal less choices to leave you alive at the end of an encounter... which is very bad.

Open carry may scare off some of the small time criminals, but the bad ones will be drawn to you. The deadly criminals will know to go after you first, if they decide to attack. They're the ones you carry a gun for in the first place.

The security of an armed populace, is that the criminals do not know who is armed and who is not. If they know you are armed, and yet still decided to attack, it's probably because they think, for some reason, you will be dealt with before you are able to harm them, and they have the advantage. They know you are armed, they know where your gun is, and they know what they intend to do before they attack.

Just my opinion.


~Icarus
 
STITCH, I bet there are plenty of gun-clubs or similar organization who are active in courting the state representatives for such a task.

I'd do some research on the internet and I bet you'll find plenty of resources.
 
Regardless of the tactical ramifications of open carry, it might be nice for Floridians to be able to take off their coat at dinner, and not worry about exposing their weapon. Or run into the 7-11 real quick without putting a coat or cover garment on. It ought to be legal, people ought to have the choice.
 
Icarus < I see your point and agree that there is an added risk..but
it is the convience factor that moves me to want to change this law.

Like Dasmi and doublease2 I dont want to have to change the way I dress in order to stay concealed, for instance just last night I went out to dinner at a BBQ resturant and their isnt a back on the chairs there so i had to go back out to my vehicle and lock my gun in the trunk because when i sat at the table my holster poked out the bottom of my shirt. I personally dont care if anyone sees my CW i just dont want to go to jail because someone saw a piece of my weapon.
 
Open Carry

Like I said, I don't want to take your right to do something away, because I don't want to do it. I think you should be able to open carry all day long if you want to.

Here in WA, open carry is legal, but the way the law works, (and I would guess the way the law would work in FL) is you are not allowed to "Brandish" a weapon or "threaten" anyone. Meaning pretty much any anti-gun idiot could call the cops and say you brandished your weapon when you walked by, and took your coat off. They could say they felt "threatened" by your weapon, and who can argue how they did or didn't feel. The cops will come, at best, you will get a stern talking to, at worst... who knows.

There are no laws requiring me to where good pants, boots and a protective jacket when I ride my motorcycle, but if it is too hot to wear the coat, it's too hot to ride, in my opinion. Carrying a deadly weapon is a big responsibility. It's not something I take lightly. So if I feel that I need to carry a gun somewhere, then it is worth my life, and well-being, and lives and well-being of those around me, for me to be a bit uncomfortable when I run into 7/11 for a Big Gulp.

Beside, how do you think the guy behind the counter would feel, when he saw a guy with a gun running into the store? Does your right to feel comfortable from the heat trump everyone else's right to feel comfortable going out to eat, or stopping at 7/11?

I'd say, yes, to both. But with freedom, comes responsibility. The press can report endlessly about how bad America is and rehash stories that lead to the killing of Americans and other innocents. They have that freedom, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You have to ask yourself: if/when the cops get called, is it worth it to you? The caller doesn't have to identify themselves to report a "crime", you will be the only one getting stopped and hassled by the cops, whether or not you get into trouble.

If you have the right to open carry, they have the right to feel threatened. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is.

~Icarus
 
Icarus wrote
Beside, how do you think the guy behind the counter would feel, when he saw a guy with a gun running into the store? Does your right to feel comfortable from the heat trump everyone else's right to feel comfortable going out to eat, or stopping at 7/11?



Well, I agree in part with what you say in your post, but this part gets me:

People do not have a "RIGHT" to feel comfortable

Nor do they have a right to never be insulted.

Nor do they have a right to "feel safe."

These are nonsensical terms thrown around by the left (like that quote by Dian Feinstein about people's right to "feel safe" that I saw in someone else's post recently in another thread). Oh, sure, they would LIKE it if there was some codified or Constitutional "right" to these things, but let's think about it for a minute. If someone claimed that there was a true "right" to feel safe, all you'd have to do to get someone in legal trouble for denying you your rights would be to SAY "I don't FEEL 'safe'"! That's ridiculous. The determination of whether someone had transgressed against your rights would be your own subjective claim that they had?!

I don't open carry -- and probably would not even if it were legal here in Florida. But that choice would be made strictly based on factors that affect ME, and never on whether some mamsy-pamsy little wimp anti "felt offended" or some BS like that.

-blackmind
 
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Yeah, I know what you mean, I felt strange about "right" when typed it, but I kept it, for lack of a better term.

There are several laws which prohibit legal actions based on the "comfort" and the expectation of comfort of others... Noise ordinance, for example. Disturbing the peace, etc. People do have a certain amount of legal premise to maintain comfort. Women generally cannot walk around in public without a shirt on! Why? Because people would be uncomfortable. It can be 110 degress outside, but women must stay covered up, no matter how uncomfortable they are.

All I was getting at is, there is a fuzzy line between your comfort and that of others. In a society, we must all compromise a bit. There aren't laws pertaining to standing in lines, yet we all do. When you go to a grocery store, you don't go the head of the line, merely because that would work best for you. It's similar as to why you shouldn't open carry in places that do not warrant that action, where it will more than likely freak people out.

I would put forward that there are no laws governing lines, because as a society, we all decide to agree on the system. Laws occur when we can't all agree; when people can't self-govern. How can we self-govern when the main reasons I've heard for allowing open carry is merely personal comfort at the expense of others'.

We carry guns so we can be safe, and feel safe. So if we need to, we can protect ourselves, and others. It seems counter-productive to use this right (The right to bear arms) for a piddly reason. Especially if it means bringing gun rights negative press to the forefront of the media. We'll all lose if all of those security moms get scared at the supermarket, and all start voting against gunowners.

Is that worth the potential danger of attracting criminals, and scaring people around you, so you can run into 7/11 with your gun hanging out?

As I've said, I agree with allowing open carry. I just believe it should used when needed, not on a whim. Open carry is nice merely to protect gunowners for when they accidentally expose their piece. But it's not something I'd like to see abused.


~Icarus
 
Open carry

Only LEOs open carry in Texas, I prefer concealed because BGs don't know whats in store. Saw a big guy East of Albuquerque in a self serve packing a .45 Single Action.
I saw no harm or felt no threat, his business. I didn't go up and spit in his eye, however.

I don't think open carry in beer joints is condusive to long life but I don't habituate them either.
 
Icarus wrote
There are several laws which prohibit legal actions based on the "comfort" and the expectation of comfort of others... Noise ordinance, for example. Disturbing the peace, etc. People do have a certain amount of legal premise to maintain comfort.

True, but in these cases, there are objective criteria that can be used to determine when someone has transgressed beyond what is allowed. Noise of a certain decibel level is defined as noise. But how can we define offense, and thus clearly delineate what people may or may not do? If I were to carry openly in front of you, you probably would not mind a bit. But I could carry openly in front of someone else and she might freak out. So whose reaction should be used as the measure of whether I can carry openly, then? What if 99 out of 100 people would be fine with it, but ONE person says, "Oooh, it makes me uncomfortable![/i (wahhh!)"?


Women generally cannot walk around in public without a shirt on! Why? Because people would be uncomfortable. It can be 110 degress outside, but women must stay covered up, no matter how uncomfortable they are.

This was challenged in NY on the grounds of equal protection, I believe, and women there won the right to be topless in public just like men, if they please. :D


As I've said, I agree with allowing open carry. I just believe it should used when needed, not on a whim. Open carry is nice merely to protect gunowners for when they accidentally expose their piece. But it's not something I'd like to see abused.

Same here, I guess.

-blackmind
 
Open carry

Noise & sound is quite subjective, what is painfully loud to my wife can be normal to me. Which is why noise ordinance is based around what time you can make noise, not how much of it you make. Meaning that if you make noise enough to bother a neightbor at 2:00AM, and he calls the police, the cops aren't going to measure how much noise you were making. They are going to cite you, or give you a stern talking to or whatever, because of the time of day/night it is, based on ONE neighbor's discomfort. You can have eight neighbors, and the other seven may not have a problem at all, or may not have even heard whatever noise you made; but the all it takes is for one to complain, and you get to explain yourself to the police.

I have varying feelings on majority/minority based rulings. In some ways I think that the rights of the few should be protected against will of the many. In the same way the anti-gun lobby went against "Assault Weapons", because they were a smaller target, less people fought. If they had gone against standard hunting rifles and shotguns, there would have been more struggle. The same way they're going against .50 cal rifles, there aren't a huge number of owners to fight them. That's why gunowners need to stick together, or they will divide and conquer us.

As for open carry, I think it should be held respectfully by those who choose to do it and well learned by the police who must enforce the law and respond to calls. If that one person out of a hundred chooses to call because of an accidental exposure, then hopefully the dispatcher can ascertain the nature of the call and respond accordingly, with no hassle to the gunowner.

I'm just noting that we do not live in a perfect world and choosing to open carry can bring very negative consequences on the person who chooses to engage in it, regardless of its legality. Some cops don't respond well to armed citizens. You could find yourself looking down the barrel of an officer's gun very easily. I'd rather skip that experience, if I could.

Speaking of perfect worlds, Women can go topless?!?! Now THAT'S progress.

:D

~Icarus
 
Open Carry Scares The Sheeple
Evolution of an Idea


When I first moved to Idaho, back in the start of the eighties, it was all too common to see people driving around with shotguns and rifles tacked up in their trucks. Farmers would come to town with their pistols strapped to their legs. It turned no heads. Caused no commotion. Was the accepted mode of everyday attire. Of course, you didn't need to lock your cars or trucks back then. Heck, you didn't need to lock your house up when you left it for a bit.

No one was bothered. Thefts of property were rare.

Slowly, as more and more people moved in from other more restrictive states; as the gangs moved in with them; as the druggies became more of a problem, this lifestyle began to come apart.

I watched the neighborhood, where I bought my house, changed from mostly older white folk (with a few of us "youngsters," peppered here and there), turn into Mexico North. As the older citizens died off and the kids didn't want the old houses, the hispanics would buy them up and move in. For some reason, this intimidated a lot of the younger whites. They sold their houses and moved out. It was immigrants and migrants that bought them up. Till I found that I was one of the very few whites that still lived in the area.

Many of these folk were migrants from the Central Valley of California. With them, they brought their families. Among these families were young bucks who thought they had To make some sort of statement... Like "we own this turf."

That didn't set well with me or most of my immediate neighbors. That was when my wife and I started carrying openly, as we went about our daily routines in our yard. Pretty soon, we could be found out and around town, with our guns strapped on. Didn't seem to bother anyone... At least no one ever commented on this. Not the stores, not even the banks. I started noticing that my immediate neighbors began wearing their guns.

It got to the point where the presence of the city police was everywhere in our neighborhood. Shootings started occurring, as one gang invaded another's turf. Almost always at some big fiesta.

With the increasing gang activity, you know it just had to happen. Came one day, when my wife were working in the front yard, we saw a bunch of guys walking up the street, a couple of blocks away, picking up small rocks and throwing them at parked cars as they moved towards my block. Well, we stood out towards the street, making sure the thugs could see us. Suddenly, all my neighbors were standing out by their yards. All of them were armed. We looked at each other and smiled, then watched as the thugs came closer. They came to the intersection that led to our street and saw us. They dropped their rocks and decided to walk in another direction.

We ended up doing this about three more times that year. Never been bothered by these cretins since. Our other neighbors down the street saw what happened and they began to do the same thing. Now, we hardly ever see these thugs. Oh, they make their presence known from time to time, but so do we. No trouble. They've got guns, we know this. But so do we, and you know? They don't seem to want to be the first to throw lead. Suits me just fine.

I may be the only Anglo left in the area, where we live, but I get treated with the same dignity and respect that I show my neighbors. We all watch each others houses. We all make it a point of telling our neighbors when we will be gone for more than a few hours.

In other parts of our town, the thugs walk about like they own the place. They paint graffiti on many of the buildings and fences facing the allies. But not here. Not in our neighborhood. Most, if not all of us are armed and we're not afraid to show these punks, we mean to protect what is ours. All of us go to the stores and gas stations and banks, armed. Openly carrying and it bothers no one.

Over the years, I've taken many of my neighbors out to our range and taught them proper handling and safety. Today, when I go to the range, I'll enivitably get asked by someone what I'm shooting today, and more often than not, take someone with me.

A visibly armed society is a polite society.

We seldom have city cops come around our neighborhood any more. Those people that belong to gangs, just don't seem to want to cause any trouble... At least not here. We still have many fiestas during the summer weekends, but no more shootings. We still get a little gang activity, but they know better than to do more than just walk through the neighborhood.

I guess what I'm trying to show, is that the loss of open carry occurs because it simply goes out of favor as a society evolves. First it occurs in the major metropolitan areas and spreads out as urbanites spread to suburbia and the rural environs.

And just the reverse needs to happen, in order to bring it back. It was easier here, because it was "out of favor" for only a short period of time. Oh to be sure, it is still not as commonplace as I would like to see it, but it is happening. Despite the fact that it "scares" the bliss ninnies here (yes, we have them... too many, if you were to ask me!).

For those of you that live in states that actually have laws against common folk being armed, it will take a concerted effort. But it can be done.

Of course, their is still the question of, Should it be done? There may be some truth to what Icarus says (even though it is a false assumption, here, in rural Idaho). But I tend to think, that those bad guys would generally leave you alone, most especially if there are more than one of you. The risks to them are too great, when confronted by more than just one person with a visible gun. Consider that the police can walk around, armed, and for the most part, they are safe. Why wouldn't the same hold for citizens? In theory, it should.

Yet still, it comes back to what Icarus is trying to say... That the will of the public is what determines normality. Here in Idaho, I have the unadorned right to carry openly, should I so desire. Brandishing laws cannot be used to curtail that right, even if it scares someone.

Having said that, if I were to go from where I live to Boise, Pocatello, Idaho Falls or Couer D'Alene, I would probably find myself facing down the cops. They don't like it. It's just not done. And many of the younger guys just don't know the law or our history. I have done this in Boise, only to be asked, politely, to conceal it, if I have a license (and they know I do, as they check my DL, which my CWP is connected to), so as not to scare the sheep. Depends upon what I'm actually doing as to whether or not I can or will comply.

I always open carry when I'm in Blaine County (Hailey/Sun Valley). I will admit I do this to spite the bliss ninnies there. It's a mean streak I let loose. Actually, it's quite satisfying. I've gotten into many a fine discussion with the police there. Guns, rigs, shooting, and the attitude of the transplants towards the locals.

But then again, this is Idaho and by and large, we're pretty cavalier about guns in general... Carry 'em if ya got 'em.
 
That is a great perspective to have here in this conversation. It is great that you were able to "take back" what is rightfully yours, meaning your neighborhood, safety, and hopefully happiness. That is a shining example of when open carry works... when everyone does it and are united about what it means. The thing that is sad to me, is that you needed to do it in the first place. That you needed to stand armed in front of your house to protect it is why we need open carry laws, and gunownership in the first place. It's not about being comfortable on a hot day. It's about being able to protect yourself and those around you.

I don't pretend to think that one solution works universally and that what works in Washington will work in Florida will work in Idaho. But we need to make sure we realize the ramification of our actions. As gunowners we have a responsibility to ourselves and to others when we decide to strap a gun to our bodies and head out the door.

Thanks, for your story.

~Icarus
 
I don't live in Florida, but I support this idea in every State where it is not already codified.
 
There are a couple of other points that should be made.

Historically, openly armed men were freer and more safe from criminal attacks. It was the bad guys who hid their arms, not the good guys. But as times changed and we became more civilized (socialized?), the gentlemanly habit of going about armed slowly dropped into obscurity.

The east, filled with dime novel dramatizations of life in the wild west, began passing laws to limit such perceived violence. Violence naturally escalated, as the bad guys never disarmed, only the good guys did as the law demanded.

In the west, life was never as bad as was depicted in the dime store novels. People moved about freely, content in knowing that the bad guys didn't want to die as much as they may have wanted your money. It's hard for one or two (or even three or four) guys to stand in front of a whole town of armed citizens. Of course, when these desperadoes bunched up and became gangs (and some of them did), all bets were off. Mob mentality became the rule of the day.

Concealed Carry then, has always had the connotation that it was the bad guys that concealed, not the good guys. For what it's worth, this is the reason so many states have such problems with passage of CC laws. In the back of the minds of the collective memories of society, concealed still means crook.

That's slowly changing. Evidence is the arguments now used why open carry is bad, or at least unsafe. Total contradiction to the history of armed carry.

The point of my story above, was to show open carry in its histroic light. That openly armed citizens can defend against what the police cannot stop. It was a given that the "hoods" were armed. But ten of them were outgunned by just 6 of us that were openly armed. Or said another way, they didn't what what we had, bad enough to die for. When the entire neighborhood became openly armed, the crooks slunk back to their dark places.

What happened was not that we had to become openly armed, rather, we rediscovered the reasons to be openly armed.

There was no real confrontation. An onlooker might only have noticed that a group of teens, walking with purpose in one direction, had suddenly decided to walk in another direction. If we had all been carrying concealed (as were the "hoods"), the possibility of direct confrontation would have been much greater.

While there may be a danger to open carry, as some would have us believe, there is as much danger when carrying concealed. And the reasons are all the same.
 
Interesting discussion here. I'm afraid Florida might find a way to wreck open carry. It would only become fashionable amongst our thugs or something. ;)
 
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