Legality in transporting a fire arm without a CCW.

[Garcia]

I have a huge issue guys, and maybe you can help.

I plan on purchasing either a 10/22 Ruger, or Ruger SR22 to practice shooting.
I'm simply 20, and can't legally conceal carry. Open Carry in the State of Florida is only reserved for: Hunting, fishing, and camping.

Well, how do I transport the gun to a firing range? If I purchase the rifle I can't walk around without openly displaying it, and I can't conceal it.

How do I walk from my car/motorcycle to the front door of my local range?

Would the parking lot of the range be private, and thus giving me the legal ability to open carry/conceal until I reach the door?

Here's another issue. I mainly drive a motorcycle, and motorcycles are not considered a "private conveyance", due to the lack of an interior enclosure. Would a leather bag/pouch be enough to legally transport via a motorcycle?

My initial intention was to keep the gun in a case locked, and in a bookbag; though carrying on my person is also illegal - which is why I was thinking I would need to use some sort of bag/storage area attached to the vehicle.

Thanks

Just trying to legally, and respectfully participate in gun ownership.

 

[dakota.potts]

Are you a Facebook member? If so, find the group Florida Open Carry. It's a Facebook group run by the members of Florida Carry including their executive lawyer.

In this case, thankfully our lawmakers were smart enough to think about this. Let's take a look at the statute:

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

However, there are some exceptions:

(3) LAWFUL USES.—The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:
(a) Members of the Militia, National Guard, Florida State Defense Force, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, organized reserves, and other armed forces of the state and of the United States, when on duty, when training or preparing themselves for military duty, or while subject to recall or mobilization;
(b) Citizens of this state subject to duty in the Armed Forces under s. 2, Art. X of the State Constitution, under chapters 250 and 251, and under federal laws, when on duty or when training or preparing themselves for military duty;
(c) Persons carrying out or training for emergency management duties under chapter 252;
(d) Sheriffs, marshals, prison or jail wardens, police officers, Florida highway patrol officers, game wardens, revenue officers, forest officials, special officers appointed under the provisions of chapter 354, and other peace and law enforcement officers and their deputies and assistants and full-time paid peace officers of other states and of the Federal Government who are carrying out official duties while in this state;
(e) Officers or employees of the state or United States duly authorized to carry a concealed weapon;
(f) Guards or messengers of common carriers, express companies, armored car carriers, mail carriers, banks, and other financial institutions, while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state;
(g) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state, or regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for target, skeet, or trap shooting, while at or going to or from shooting practice; or regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for modern or antique firearms collecting, while such members are at or going to or from their collectors’ gun shows, conventions, or exhibits;
(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;
(i) A person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person while engaged in the lawful course of such business;
(j) A person firing weapons for testing or target practice under safe conditions and in a safe place not prohibited by law or going to or from such place;
(k) A person firing weapons in a safe and secure indoor range for testing and target practice;
(l) A person traveling by private conveyance when the weapon is securely encased or in a public conveyance when the weapon is securely encased and not in the person’s manual possession;
(m) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a secure wrapper, concealed or otherwise, from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business;
 A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business;
(o) Investigators employed by the several public defenders of the state, while actually carrying out official duties, provided such investigators:

Bolding mine

So situations in which you may open or conceal carry a weapon:
Hunting, fishing, camping, target shooting, or while going to or from any of these activities
At your home
At your place of business (where you work) where not prohibited by law
Bringing it to or from a place of repair
If you are in the business of manufacturing or selling firearms and are testing them
At a safe location testing a weapon

However, you may not open or conceal carry a weapon:
At the 7/11 you stopped at on the way to go fishing, hunting, target shooting, etc.
At a home that's not your own -- unless engaged in a lawful activity described above that would nullify the law

If you had a vehicle, that would infinitely simplify the process for transporting the weapon. A handgun has to be in a sealed container of some sort which must be unlocked or otherwise opened before you can use it. This means a glove box, a center console, a gun safe, a gym bag with a zipper, but not a Publix or Crown Royal bag through which the weapon could be manipulated without removing it. A long gun can be anywhere in the vehicle.

Gee, aren't our laws so wonderfully straightforward?

Edited to add a couple of notes:

The question has come up in our group about motorcycle lawyer and been answered by the attorney, but I'm not as smart as him and won't attempt to advise you on that.

You CANNOT carry on private property just because somebody says you can. Your friend can give you a legal document, signed in triplicate and notarized saying it's all well and good, but that doesn't change the law. It's not a big distinction, but it's important to understanding how Florida law works. You can carry at the range because it's an organized club for target shooting, as well as a safe location for shooting not restricted by law. But not because the range authorizes it. Likewise, if I work at Publix (I don't) and want to carry a gun, I can. But the owner of Publix can not grant permission for me to carry it if I don't work there, no matter how close we may be.

 

[Garcia]

Thanks Dakota. Sadly, I do not have a Facebook. From what I'm able to comprehend I can conceal on my way towards the gun range, but must simply go straight there and no detours like you stated.

Now my only issue is involving the motorcycle. Would the law regarding "interior of a private conveyance" be redundant as I'm going to and from a place of gun-sporting? Of course the gun would be in some sort of case with a lock making it "securly encased". The gray area is that it would be on my person. Just to help visualize my situation; driving motorcycle + bookbag on my back + gun in bookbag with gun lock.

Please ignore any spelling, or sentence issues as this post is from my cell phone.

 

[dakota.potts]

You can conceal or open carry on your way to the range, although it's not really advisable to open carry if you're going to be seeing many people (ie not out in the sticks with understanding neighbors)

I don't know if having it locked in your backpack would constitute securely encased within a private conveyance. From what I remember, the law is murky and case law even murkier. However, going to and from the range or your gun shop/place of repair it can be concealed, and locked in the safe in your backpack is definitely concealed. The safe is (legally, anyways) redundant to that matter, but probably a good idea anyways.

I imagine you could find an interior saddle that would hold a handgun safe big enough for an SR22 and then you really shouldn't have any problems. I don't know what I would tell you about transporting a rifle like the Ruger 10/22 though

 

[Don P]

Here's another issue. I mainly drive a motorcycle, and motorcycles are not considered a "private conveyance", due to the lack of an interior enclosure. Would a leather bag/pouch be enough to legally transport via a motorcycle?

M/C is a private conveyance. A shooter from the range I belong to open carried going home from the range on a MOTORCYCLE. He was detained by the Lake Mary PD because of it. Most law enforcement are not fully versed on the Open carry part of the law.
Saddle bags/ leather pouch is legal for transport on a M/C.
Without saying make sure the bags/pouch are securely attached if you plan on transporting a firearm in them.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Sunshine State....

Hi;
I'd check these sources: www.FloridaFirearmsLaw.com www.Handgunlaw.us www.nra.org www.gunlawguide.com www.mylicensesite.com .

I don't own any scooters or choppers so I couldn't say what the motor vehicle laws are. In general, a sworn LE officer won't stop you or hassle you if you are in route or leaving a gun range/state park. Just don't wander about with your rifle then make lame excuses.
And believe me, cops & security guards constantly hear weak excuses.

Clyde

 

[JimDandy]

As most of the professional lawyers here will tell you, it's best to find a local attorney versed in firearms law to consult with you. I can't imagine something this quick would run you TOO much. Especially given how much it will run you if you're wrong.

With that said- Even Sport bikes usually have some sort of hard plastic saddlebag option, then it's just a matter of trying to find one big enough for your rifle case.

Florida Statutes on Firearms for:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use.

Most especially the

Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use.

part.

Additionally, in the Definitions Section we have:

(17) “Securely encased” means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.

Unfortunately your concerns on what constitutes a "private conveyance" does not appear to be addressed. Doing some further research: Florida Court ruling Doughty v Florida states at the very least, that you can't WEAR your container. It does appear to confirm that a motorcycle is a private conveyance, but you still require some sort of internal compartment. Whether the saddlebags already mentioned qualify, I couldn't say.

Yet, pursuant to the
unambiguous language of section 790.25(5), even a securely encased
weapon does not fall under the private conveyance exception if it is
carried “on the person.”

Our holding in Gemmill is no less applicable where a defendant is
riding a motorcycle. In this regard, we further note that the private
conveyance exception of section 790.25(5), by its express terms, applies
only to the carrying of a concealed weapon “within the interior of a
private conveyance.” We interpret this language to require a person
carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, while riding a motorcycle,
to keep the concealed weapon securely encased and in an interior
compartment of the motorcycle.

And

Under the facts presented, Doughty did not meet the statutory
requirements of the private conveyance exception because, albeit he was
traveling in a private conveyance and his firearm was securely encased,
he was carrying the firearm on his person and did not have it within an
interior compartment of his motorcycle.

As sitting on the seat is "in a private conveyance" I would hope inside a hard plastic saddlebag mounted above and behind the seat would also be "in the conveyance". But it's your criminal record, and your free time for a couple years or better, so I'd ask a local lawyer if I were you.

 

[Garcia]

@Don P

The problem is sense there's no interior, or place within the bike you can't legally conceal carry. Unless you put the gun within the frame of the bike, which I can't do.

The "private conveyance" section only applies to the motor vehicle, and not the actual person. I may legally open carry, but I don't feel like dealing with the attention from the police.

Jim brings up what I thought was in fact illegal in the court case:

DANIEL J. DOUGHTY v. Florida.

So it would be in fact illegal for me to conceal carry on my person (A bookbag).

I don't want to open carry (which is legal) due to the stigma, and police attention. So now I have to discuss with a lawyer whether a saddle bag affixed to a bike is considered an "interior enclosure".

My initial problem still isn't fixed - lets ignore the fact that I ride a bike. How do I transport the gun from the parking lot into the gun shop without it being on my persons, immediate possession, and not openly displayed?

I mean honestly....

I just need the ability to walk into the store, which takes less than 20 secs. I could of course do it illegal and simply conceal.

Realistically I'll never get caught, but man! Are gun laws silly, especially being a third degree felony.

 

[Garcia]

Looks like my only option (legal) is to open carry if I wish to visit the gun range....

Damn, I hate open carry.

I guess I can call my local sheriff and police department and inform them of me driving to the gun range...

I just hope there's no itchy trigger rookies.

 

[JimDandy]

I've never heard of any jurisdiction that has ever made it a crime to go from the car to the range with an unloaded firearm in a locked hard sided case. I've never heard of any place it's illegal to walk from the car to the range with it in a soft sided/zippered case either, but stranger things have happened on that one.

I can't imagine any court that would uphold charges stemming from carrying a locked hard sided case containing an unloaded firearm from your car in the range parking lot to the range itself without some other issue i.e. FOID cards etc.

 

[Garcia]

@Jim

It's not that there's a particular jurisdiction.

It's the fact that a gun case is a container concealing the gun, and thus it's illegal for me (20 year old w/o CCW) to do such an act.

I've also been reading that it is in fact illegal to open carry while in a vehicle as I am underage, and don't have a CCW (CCW required to open carry in car/bike).

I'm legally allowed to open carry, but only on foot(tax payer property). if I open carry in car/motorcycle I'm committing a felony.

So looks like I can't partake in my 2nd amendment right until the age of 21 (realistically).

Appears like I can't partake in shooting a firearm outside of self defense, and killing animals in the state of Florida (unless I want to walk around and across multiple law enforcement districts to my local gun range) : /

Love how in America I can get charged as an adult for crimes, but I can't legally exercise my rights as they're reserved for "real" adults : /

***
Oh, to legally transport the gun from the car (Can't legally use my bike) I will have to open carry from my car to the door of the range.

790.25
(g)Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state, or regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for target, skeet, or trap shooting, while at or going to or from shooting practice

I don't like open carry, but it's my only legal option.

In case anyone is lurking the thread via Google if you want to practice shooting a handgun in the state of Florida between the ages of 18-20 the following must be done:

The gun must be securely encased within the interior of a private conveyance. Once you reach your destination you must open carry the firearm to the entrance of the gun range.

It can not be in a gun case as you'll be committing a third degree felony under Florida statue 790.01.

 

[JimDandy]

I'm not sure carrying a firearm in a locked case is carrying concealed. On or About A Person is the definition. Really check with a local lawyer, but I think you're reading more into concealed carry than there is.

 

[Garcia]

@Jim.

At a federal level you're correct. A gun in an OEM gun case on your persons is not considered concealed, but at the state level you risk committing a third degree felony at a Judge's discretion (in the state of Florida) - no sense in making myself or other into a precedent/case law.

The way the laws are written anyone between the ages of 18-20 must transport the gun as I stated above to be doing so legally.

 

[Garcia]

I'll be cleaning up the grammatical errors, and sentence structure in a bit for future reads.

 

[2ndsojourn]

Garcia, there's a big difference between open carrying and transporting. Taking the gun with you from your vehicle to the range in a case for instance, is transporting.

 

[JimDandy]

It can't work that way Garcia, or you never would have been able to take possession of it when you bought it. You wouldn't have been able to leave the store. It would violate your second amendment rights, now incorporated against the states. You have to be able to purchase it, take it home, take it to the range to practice, engage in lawful sporting events...

 

[Garcia]

I believe you're correct, but I can't purchase a pistol from an FFL dealer (I may legally purchase 2nd hand off the street). There's also a specific statue regarding the transportation of firearms upon purchase.

(m) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a secure wrapper, concealed or otherwise, from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business;

I'm not purchasing the firearm, and so that law doesn't apply to me.

So your points are somewhat not valid. I'm discussing the technicalities with some instructors at the moment - maybe they have more insight as I don't have access to a lawyer.

 

[Garcia]

Ha, I was over complicated things.

I am in fact protected under....

LAWFUL USES.—The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:

(j) A person firing weapons for testing or target practice under safe conditions and in a safe place not prohibited by law or going to or from such place;



Thanks, guys. I simply can't have it on my persons upon travel.




http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.25.html

 

[Don P]

I did not tell you to open carry. All I was stating is that LE is not all versed in weapons law as one would want to believe. Saddle bags/touring pac securely attached to the motorcycle meets the requirement because you will have to stop the M/C to gain access which in reality is more effort than you would need in a car to gain access to the firearm. Like stated call or ask a lawyer who is versed in firearms law. Asking your county sheriff could very well give you false incorrect info just because they are not versed in firearm law. If all you are wanting to transport is a long gun then you have a dilemma

 

[dakota.potts]

Garcia,
The provisions in 790.25 (lawful uses) nullify the laws against both open and concealed carry.

In effect this means that as long as you are covered under the lawful uses, you can have a pistol locked in your backpack on your motorcycle. There is no need for it to be a private conveyance or securely encased, as the lawful uses section already allows you to carry it on or about your person while going to and from the range.

You can not, however, carry it like that on a daily basis, going to the store, etc.