Legal to purchase pistol in another state?
- Thread starter LarryLove
- Start date
Sure but you must do it through your local dealer or FFL,Dealer to Dealer on your behalf.
Sometimes a dealer will give you a copy of his FFL and you do the leg work and deal for the purchase. He will then recieve your firearm and do the paperwork and charge you a fee.
Hope this helps
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
Sometimes a dealer will give you a copy of his FFL and you do the leg work and deal for the purchase. He will then recieve your firearm and do the paperwork and charge you a fee.
Hope this helps
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
Actually, this would be an in-person purchace at a gun shop in a different state. A friend from Virginia will be visiting me in PA. Said friend wants to purchase a pistol but is unknowledgable, and is hoping to have me along to help with selection.
So I guess I should have been more specific. I know that loknload described the procedure for buying thru the mail. But I had thought that a resident would have to buy directly from a dealer in his own state. Is this wrong, or can my Virginian friend purchase directly thru a PA dealer AT THE PA LOCATION?
[This message has been edited by LarryLove (edited October 11, 2000).]
So I guess I should have been more specific. I know that loknload described the procedure for buying thru the mail. But I had thought that a resident would have to buy directly from a dealer in his own state. Is this wrong, or can my Virginian friend purchase directly thru a PA dealer AT THE PA LOCATION?
[This message has been edited by LarryLove (edited October 11, 2000).]
Larry, I believe here in PA. he could. But I'm not 100% sure on this and my PA gun law book is at work. I do remember guys coming up from New Jersey to local gun shows and I do believe they were buying. Could be wrong on this. All you really have to do is check with your local shop.
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
Dizzipator
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LarryLove:
... can my Virginian friend purchase directly thru a PA dealer AT THE PA LOCATION?[/quote]
Quick answer - NO.
Detailed answer.
Under federal law a resident on one state can not buy a firearm from a dealer in another state. There are some exceptions, but based upon the facts you have presented your friend would not qualify.
1) There is an exception for FFL holders. Given that you describe your friend as inexperienced with firearms, I am assuming that he/she does not hold an FFL.
2) There is an exception for the purchase of long guns, that is, rifles and shotguns, that can be allowed by the states if they so legislate at the state level. Since your friend wants to purchase a handgun, it does not qualify for this exception. Note: This exception applies only when the long gun is purchased directly from an FFL.
3) Private party interstate transfers are allowed for some transfer on death for estate liquidation reasons. I certainly hope you do not get to exercise this option this weekend.
(References- The National Firearms Act of 1934, since expanded a bit by the Gun Control Act of 1968 then modified here and there to change restrictions)
Tips and Suggestions
Go shopping with your friend. If they find something that they like, they could buy it and have it shipped to an FFL near them, thereby getting the exact gun that you have examined and approved of. Otherwise, you could choose a model with them and then have them go shopping in VA for a like model.
Do not purchase the firearm for your friend and then transfer it to him/her. This would constitute a straw purchase that would require you to commit perjury (by lying on the 4473 form about being the actual purchaser) in addition to the crime of illegally transferring a firearm to an out-of-state resident. Bad juju indeed.
(Typos Typos Typos!)
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 11, 2000).]
... can my Virginian friend purchase directly thru a PA dealer AT THE PA LOCATION?[/quote]
Quick answer - NO.
Detailed answer.
Under federal law a resident on one state can not buy a firearm from a dealer in another state. There are some exceptions, but based upon the facts you have presented your friend would not qualify.
1) There is an exception for FFL holders. Given that you describe your friend as inexperienced with firearms, I am assuming that he/she does not hold an FFL.
2) There is an exception for the purchase of long guns, that is, rifles and shotguns, that can be allowed by the states if they so legislate at the state level. Since your friend wants to purchase a handgun, it does not qualify for this exception. Note: This exception applies only when the long gun is purchased directly from an FFL.
3) Private party interstate transfers are allowed for some transfer on death for estate liquidation reasons. I certainly hope you do not get to exercise this option this weekend.
(References- The National Firearms Act of 1934, since expanded a bit by the Gun Control Act of 1968 then modified here and there to change restrictions)
Tips and Suggestions
Go shopping with your friend. If they find something that they like, they could buy it and have it shipped to an FFL near them, thereby getting the exact gun that you have examined and approved of. Otherwise, you could choose a model with them and then have them go shopping in VA for a like model.
Do not purchase the firearm for your friend and then transfer it to him/her. This would constitute a straw purchase that would require you to commit perjury (by lying on the 4473 form about being the actual purchaser) in addition to the crime of illegally transferring a firearm to an out-of-state resident. Bad juju indeed.
(Typos Typos Typos!)
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 11, 2000).]
Dizzipator is correct. Your friend can go to the gunshop in PA and pay for the handgun, but he cannot take possession. The handgun must be transfered to an FFL in his home state (VA), where he will have to pay the FFL a transfer fee for his time, fill out the 4473, and undergo the NICS check, if applicable.
M1911
M1911
Dizzipator
New member
Thank you M1911. Trying to be as brief as possible in my prior post, I over-simplified by using "purchase" to mean "purchase and take delivery of" from a dealer.
If your friend in VA is on good terms with a VA dealer (probably not, but if) he can get the dealer to give him a copy of the dealer's FFL. He gives this to the PA dealer who will ship the gun to the VA dealer. Both will probably charge small fees. At one time, a person could simply hand over the FFL copy and walk out with the gun, but I think that is no longer legal.
I really see no reason for this rigamarole. Your friend can look at guns in PA, you can advise him, and then he can return to VA and purchase the gun of his choice through a VA dealer.
Jim
I really see no reason for this rigamarole. Your friend can look at guns in PA, you can advise him, and then he can return to VA and purchase the gun of his choice through a VA dealer.
Jim
bubbaturbo
New member
Just to make it more confusing...I don't know about now but the law used to say that you could not bring a handgun bought out of state back to your home state. In other words, it was technically legal to buy the gun out of state and take possession of it but you actually broke the law when you brought it back to your home state. If you left it in any other state but your own, you were OK. Most dealers did not know this and would not sell to you if you were from out of state. This is a piece of trivia that has probably been changed but it is directly out of the mouth of my neighbor, an ATF guy. (Was I surprised when I moved in but fortunately he is progun.)
[This message has been edited by bubbaturbo (edited October 11, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by bubbaturbo (edited October 11, 2000).]
Dizzipator
New member
bubbaturbo:
Either the law changed a bit or your ATF neighbor gave you some over-generalized advice. It is true that a person can legally take delivery of and then bring home to his own state an arm legally purchased from a dealer in a state that the purchaser is not a resident of;
However, it is illegal for a licensed dealer to sell a handgun to someone that the dealer knows or reasonably believes to not be a resident of the state in which the licensee has its place of business. The exception to this covers rifles and shotguns only, so handgun buyers are out of luck.
I have attempted to present in a clean and concise manner the relevant parts of the US Code below. Read them and make up your own mind. The key here is that LarryLove's original question dealt with handguns. I suppose if you succeeded in fooling the dealer as to your state of residence, you could buy the handgun, but you could not legally bring it home! Of course, by lying about your residence, and deceiving the dealer in your attempt to acquire the handgun you would Title 18: Section 922 (a)(6)!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Title 18: Section 922(a)(3)
<It shall be unlawful for any non-licensed individual (paraphrased)> ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any fire arm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) <exception for transfers out of estates>, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section ... [/quote]
but
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Title 18: Section 922(b)(3)
<It shall be unlawful for any licensee (paraphrased)> ... to sell or deliver any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States ... [/quote]
A note in passing: Interesting that it bans the "sale or delivery" of guns to non-residents.
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 12, 2000).]
Either the law changed a bit or your ATF neighbor gave you some over-generalized advice. It is true that a person can legally take delivery of and then bring home to his own state an arm legally purchased from a dealer in a state that the purchaser is not a resident of;
However, it is illegal for a licensed dealer to sell a handgun to someone that the dealer knows or reasonably believes to not be a resident of the state in which the licensee has its place of business. The exception to this covers rifles and shotguns only, so handgun buyers are out of luck.
I have attempted to present in a clean and concise manner the relevant parts of the US Code below. Read them and make up your own mind. The key here is that LarryLove's original question dealt with handguns. I suppose if you succeeded in fooling the dealer as to your state of residence, you could buy the handgun, but you could not legally bring it home! Of course, by lying about your residence, and deceiving the dealer in your attempt to acquire the handgun you would Title 18: Section 922 (a)(6)!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Title 18: Section 922(a)(3)
<It shall be unlawful for any non-licensed individual (paraphrased)> ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any fire arm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) <exception for transfers out of estates>, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section ... [/quote]
but
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Title 18: Section 922(b)(3)
<It shall be unlawful for any licensee (paraphrased)> ... to sell or deliver any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States ... [/quote]
A note in passing: Interesting that it bans the "sale or delivery" of guns to non-residents.
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 12, 2000).]
Dizzipator,
Since you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject material I have a question. Do I understand correctly that a private sale of a handgun to say, a father-in-law that lives in another state would be a federal offence??
If so, do you know what the statute of limitations on this is?
Joe
"I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything." Bart Simpson
Since you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject material I have a question. Do I understand correctly that a private sale of a handgun to say, a father-in-law that lives in another state would be a federal offence??
If so, do you know what the statute of limitations on this is?
Joe
"I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything." Bart Simpson
Dizzipator
New member
Back to the law we go. I will not answer the statute of limitations question as that is probably a bit too close to actually practicing law. Yes, I am a licensed attorney, but I DO NOT play one in real life. I offer all of these interpretations as background material only. If you feel you may have criminal liability for any actions, seek competent local legal counsel. You will note that I have generalized your question above to avoid discussing any actual past occurrences. Further, you should note that I have made no attempt to account for state law, only federal law in this analysis. Batteries not included, your mileage may vary.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would the private sale of a handgun to someone that lives in another state would be a federal offense?[/quote]
Quick answer - Most likely yes, especially if done between un-licensed persons, the sale would be illegal.
Discussion:
Unlicensed persons are not allowed to sell or give a firearm(s) to residents of a state other than their own state of residence.
Exceptions are provided for a temporary loan or rental of the firearm(s) for legal sporting purposes. The statute does not provide a specific definition of temporary, so I linked to dictionary.com to suggest its meaning.
There is no exception to the interstate sale restriction on unlicensed persons for family members, except perhaps under the general allowance for transferring guns out of an estate to be received across state lines.
Possibly a defense could be fashioned if a prior sale was re-characterized as a temporary rental of an unspecified time?
The other obvious possible defense would be that the seller did not know that the recipient of the transfor/sale/gift was not a resident of the state.
As regards handguns this has all been around since the National Firearms Act of 1934. It was the Gun Control Act of 1968 that extended the license requirement for interstate transfers to include long guns.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>US Code Title 18: Section 922 (a)(5)
It shall be unlawful -
(5)for any <non-licensed> person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any <non-licensed> person ... who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) <transfers made out as bequests of an estate or when someone dies without a will>, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
[/quote]
Aside: All of this crap is one of the reasons I wanted to go to law school in the first place. Between being a shooting enthusiast and a ham radio operator, I felt like I had to go law school just to keep myself out of jail. I've survived for years without actually practicing, though maybe I missed my calling.
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 12, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would the private sale of a handgun to someone that lives in another state would be a federal offense?[/quote]
Quick answer - Most likely yes, especially if done between un-licensed persons, the sale would be illegal.
Discussion:
Unlicensed persons are not allowed to sell or give a firearm(s) to residents of a state other than their own state of residence.
Exceptions are provided for a temporary loan or rental of the firearm(s) for legal sporting purposes. The statute does not provide a specific definition of temporary, so I linked to dictionary.com to suggest its meaning.
There is no exception to the interstate sale restriction on unlicensed persons for family members, except perhaps under the general allowance for transferring guns out of an estate to be received across state lines.
Possibly a defense could be fashioned if a prior sale was re-characterized as a temporary rental of an unspecified time?
The other obvious possible defense would be that the seller did not know that the recipient of the transfor/sale/gift was not a resident of the state.
As regards handguns this has all been around since the National Firearms Act of 1934. It was the Gun Control Act of 1968 that extended the license requirement for interstate transfers to include long guns.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>US Code Title 18: Section 922 (a)(5)
It shall be unlawful -
(5)for any <non-licensed> person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any <non-licensed> person ... who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) <transfers made out as bequests of an estate or when someone dies without a will>, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
[/quote]
Aside: All of this crap is one of the reasons I wanted to go to law school in the first place. Between being a shooting enthusiast and a ham radio operator, I felt like I had to go law school just to keep myself out of jail. I've survived for years without actually practicing, though maybe I missed my calling.
[This message has been edited by Dizzipator (edited October 12, 2000).]
And the winner for most ridiculous attempt to pretend that logic was used belongs to US Code Title 18: Section 922 for this little ditty:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;[/quote]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;[/quote]
Well that seems to explain the legality of state to state.
Q: How must transfers be done with state to state/internet private purchases. Does the seller in State A go to his FFL, who has the FFL of from State B, or does the seller simply need to get the FFL from State B himself?
Q: How must transfers be done with state to state/internet private purchases. Does the seller in State A go to his FFL, who has the FFL of from State B, or does the seller simply need to get the FFL from State B himself?