legal to convert SKS to high cap mags

N

novus collectus

Moderator
I have been wonderring about this concept that it is illegal to make your SKS accept detachable magazines unless you change so many parts to American made ones. If I am right (and please let me know if I am not), then as long as you change the features of the rifle to a non "assault rifle", as per the definition of the 1989 ban, and you do not have more than two of the a.r. features, you can add the detachable magazine without breaking the law. For example: If you remove the bayonet lug and remove the grenade launcher, then you no longer have the two features that fits the definition of "assault rifle" and you can add the detachable mag.

Even C&R qualifying SKS's should be legal if you do this because the only thing that will change is the C&R status when it is transfered again. It will be just like any other imported sporting rifle.

I had fallen into the belief that I cannot add a detachable mag to my SKS legally, but now that I think about it, I think that many of us have been getting this wrong. If I remove the bayonet lug, or alter it so it cannot take a bayonet, then it would only have just one feature that would qualify it for the BATF regulation (which is the grenade launcher) and I could !still! add the det. mag..

Now I know that they have a list of parts that you must replace in order for them to be transfered legally, or even owned, but doesn't that apply to the "assault rifle" configuration only? (i.e. folding stock, flash suppressor, bayonet lug, thumbhole stock, etc.) And not to sporterised rifles even if they now have a det. mag. and foreign parts?

Am I wrong?? Please let me know what you know. :)
 
Just change out enough parts to make it have less than 10 imported parts.

I can't speak for any other SKS, but I have a Yugo 59/66. I also have a letter from the ATF saying that any changes to the rifle immediately bring the rifle out of C&R config, making it immediately a rifle not suitable for import. To rectify it, I must swap out the parts.

All I can comment on is the letter from the ATF saying that your idea is wrong (at least for a 59/66). I simply choose not to play games with the law.
 
I've come to accept the 10 round fixed mag, and I sorta like it. Doesn't really get in the way or anything so, and its easy enough to load up strippers(I have about 500 rounds loaded on strippers right now)
 
Never seen a definitive answer

on this one...I asked a similar question about folding stocks (my idea was that, as long as it DIDN'T have a detachable mag, then folding stock was OK)...Anyhow, heard many conflicting stories, INCLUDING letters from BATF, which contadicted themselves, depending on who you talked to.

So...I bought a pre-ban SKS-M (which takes AK mags)...100% reliable (unlike alot of the aftermarket detachable SKS mags), and no question that its legal(except that I KNOW I can't put on folding stock on it. Bummer)
 
I can't speak for any other SKS, but I have a Yugo 59/66. I also have a letter from the ATF saying that any changes to the rifle immediately bring the rifle out of C&R config, making it immediately a rifle not suitable for import. To rectify it, I must swap out the parts.
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But was the letter meant for the importers alone? After all, the rifle is already imported. The "assault rifle" ban of 1989 just applied to imported rifles and if I am not even more confused, one of the reasons you could not change the configuration of a C&R SKS was because of the 1994 "assault weapons" ban (somehow?).

If I understand how this "grey area" has transpired was when they enacted the 1989 ban, importers just imported the parts for AKMs and AK47s and assembled them. When they were assembled, they were now "made in America" and not subject to the 1989 ban. Therefore the ATF made the regulation that you could not make an AK 47, or any banned imported rifle, from more than 10 imported parts. However , I wonder if it just applies to "assault rifle" configurations that are in the ban. If someone wanted to import or already had the non-C&R SKS and kept more than the ten parts but changed it so that it would be just like anyother hunting rifle, will it still be under that regulation? (sorry if I keep repeating myself, but I am trying to paraphrase and clarify my earlier questions)

I am beginning to think that the reason the ATF has never cleared this up publicly, is that since they have never enforced it with a gun owner that is not a importer/manufacturer (AFAIK), there has never been a need for clarification (yet?).
 
The ATF didn't make that regulation, it is part of the Import Ban and it is in the law passed by Congress.

The problem arises when you modify an imported rifle out of its original configuration. If you create a rifle that would not be 'importable' then you have violated the law. The only definitions we get for importable are the subjective ones given out by the BATFE. Basically a rifle has to meet a 'sporting purposes' test to be considered importable.

To bypass all of these restrictions, you can simply exchange enough foreign parts with US-made ones so that your rifle is no longer legally defined as an 'imported rifle'.
 
But was the letter meant for the importers alone? After all, the rifle is already imported. The "assault rifle" ban of 1989 just applied to imported rifles and if I am not even more confused, one of the reasons you could not change the configuration of a C&R SKS was because of the 1994 "assault weapons" ban (somehow?).
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The letter was adressed to me, a non-manufacturer, so I am guessing that the rules apply to me. IIRC, the laws are against making a weapon non-suitable for import. It all matters if the gun is suitable for import in its configuration. I don't know if you removed all the parts of an SKS to make it simply a semi-auto rifle, if you would have to change out the parts. I know what I have to work with, and that is any changes rip that rifle out of C&R config, and the parts must be swapped out.

Anyways, the removeable mags are supposed to be junk anyways. I'd second the SKS-D idea.

This is the problem with gun control, that the end user has to sit on an internet forum wondering if they don't replace a Yugoslavian part with the exact same thing made in America, if they will get in trouble for it.
 
The problem arises when you modify an imported rifle out of its original configuration. If you create a rifle that would not be 'importable' then you have violated the law. The only definitions we get for importable are the subjective ones given out by the BATFE. Basically a rifle has to meet a 'sporting purposes' test to be considered importable.
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That's my point. Hypothetically, if an importer can import an AK with the ten parts and has been changed enough to be considered a rifle for "sporting purposes", then why can't we? I know that when an importer changes a C&R rifle to a sporting rifle, it now ceases to be a C&R, but I assume that he can now import the rifle. If I understand it, the law says that you can have a semi-auto rifle with a detachable mag imported if it does not have two of the other features with as well. So what if you have all ten foreign parts in a rifle with none, or just one, of the "bad" features?

One of the reasons I am asking this is that I do not currently have the money for an AK and I think Md treats it like a handgun with all of the regulations as well. Also, I have the det. mag. already, want the folding stock and I probably cannot afford the American parts anyway.

I know that if I make the (Yugo) SKS accept the det. mag., change the stock to a folding stock and do not remove the bayonet lug and the grenade launcher, then I am breaking the law. What confuses me is that if I am not creating an "assault rifle" by their definitions, I can do what I want with the rifle containing the ten parts. As an example: If I attach a scope, am I altering the rifle and now have to change some parts to American made? If I remove the grenade launcher or the bayonet then am I altering the rifle? Are the California Yugo SKSs' now illegal because they have been modified from their origional configuration? If I remove the gas piston and make it a bolt action only, then am I changing the configuration thereby making it illegal? If the answer is no to any of these questions, then you understand my quandry as to why I cannot change my Yugo SKS from a C&R rifle to a "sporting purposes" rifle that accepts the det. mags. and make it no longer "defined" as an "assault rifle".

Btw, thanks for clearing up the part about when the "ten parts" list was created. I do not have much time for researching the details this morning.
 
I tried the detachable 30 rounders in my Tula SKS (when they were still legal). It was a PITA. First of all, the gun was never designed for such mags. Second, they didn't attach or feed well. And third, the original Russian configuration with bayonet is, well, beautiful in its own right. Enjoy your rifle for what it is, and enjoy shooting it often.
 
To clarify...

There are a couple of different laws laws at work here. First, there is no longer anything called an "assault weapon." The current catch is 922(r) which prohibits the assembly of a weapon not legal for importation from imported parts. If you meet the parts count requirement, you can do anything you want to the firearm (short of violating the NFA restrictions) because is no longer considered an import.

The deal with the Yugos is that a SKS with a grenade launcher is not legal for importation. The only reason the Yugo can be imported it is because it falls under the definition of a C&R firearm. If you alter a C&R firearm from its original configuration, it loses that C&R protection and reverts to a "modern" fiream and becomes a firearm not legal for importation. You can do the parts count dance with a Yugo SKS which would then make it a made in the USA firearm. That removes the need for the C&R protection, so you can then do what you want to the gun.

And for your information, there is currently a bill in congress to remove the "sporting" clause from the '68 GCA, making it legal to import any firearm that could be legally manufactured in the US.
 
Hk, do you have a link for the bill? I'd be interested in reading it (and I really suck at using the search engine to fine stuff :( ).

Is there a listing of parts or is it ANY part? I mean, change out the screws and some pins/springs and viola, an American gun?

Wayne
 
which prohibits the assembly of a weapon not legal for importation from imported parts.
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What makes a rifle illegal to import? Is it the "assault rifle" definitions or a named model? If it is the features (bayonet, flash suppressor, etc.) that make it unimportable and not the specific model, then any SKS can be imported if they remove the offending parts.
If you alter a C&R firearm from its original configuration, it loses that C&R protection and reverts to a "modern" fiream and becomes a firearm not legal for importation.
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If this is so then the "California legal" 59/66 SKSs are illegal under this law.
You are confusing a couple of different laws. First, there is no longer anything called an "assault weapon."
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I know about this and this is why I have been referring to it (unless I slipped) as an "assault rifles " ban.

It really sounds to me that many people are confusing the two laws and the C&R designations and I was guilty of this too. But I think that many of us are taking too much for face value and we are perpetuating the (possible) myth when we say that we cannot add a det. mag. to a Yugo SKS.

Is it possible that when people look up the laws and regulations, or when they wrote the BATFE asking them about the legalities of adding the mags, that they overlooked or forgot to ask the question of what if I remove the other feature that would qualify it as an "assault rifle" BEFORE I add the det. magazine?

I am not looking for loopholes in the law, but I believe I am just pointing out contradictions in the law or how we mis-percieve the law.
 
What makes a rifle illegal to import?
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ATF has a process that evaluates a given completely assembled firearm and based on its decision, the gun is either sporting or not. When ATF ruled on the SKS, they decided that a SKS with a detachable magazine was not sporting. SKSs can be imported as modern firearms if they do not have a detachable magazine, bayonet or grenade launcher. Following the '89 ban, the Norinco SKSs were still being imported, minus the bayonet, until Clinton managed to get China so stop making them.

If you are interested, HERE is how ATF made the decisions back in 1989.

If this is so then the "California legal" 59/66 SKSs are illegal under this law.
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Yes, they are unless the Director of ATF made an exception for CA.

do you have a link for the bill?
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H.R. 1703 - `Second Amendment Protection Act of 2005'
 
I tried reading the ATF link and I realised that I was barely putting a dent in it. It is long. I am going to e-mail the attorney Mark Barnes who writes for Small Arms Review, about this and see what he says. I am still not convinced (yet).
 
If you can still find one the Russian Saiga AK 47's they were inported as a sporting rifle. They sold for around $250.00 to 300.00. EAA was the importer until the first of the year. I still see a few at gun shows. They can be easily converted to take regular AK high cap mags. Then you must add enough USA parts for 922. I have left the ones I have as is. They are great shooters and one of the best AK 47's on the market. If you want more information do a google search for Saiga rifle.
 
dolanp,
I read that link you provided. Thanks. But I am still somewhat convinced that adding the mag to my SKS is legal as long as I do not keep the rest of the rifle "identical" to an unimportable, non-sporting, banned rifle. If I do not keep the features of the 922r regulation that make a rifle unimportable, then it seems as if I can do this. BUT I also read just how easy and inexpensive it is to meet the "less than ten imported parts" requirement. I think that this is the way to go now because in the future, without having to worry about 922r, I can add: a pistol grip, a folding stock, and threads to the barrel. :D

So, I have been convinced by some of you to not go the "add the detachable mag and remove the baynet mount" route. I still think I may be right though. ;) But, thanks to all (regardless of my ego) :) .
 
I don't know if the mods/admins will allow this, but here goes:

HK, damn dude, you came through and I knew you would. You always have.

As for the SKS (here is where the mods/admins come into play):

I don't know if it's legal or not. I really don't give a damn either way. But the biggest problem that I've heard is that the bolt doesn't lock back. Now, in the Sporter that takes AK mags, the bolt won't lock back, but in the SKS's, you can make them work... here's how:

Remove the magazine that and then replace with the mag you wish to install, and then remove the trigger group. Replace the magazine in the gun and then re-install the trigger group. Works only once, you can replace a 30/40/50 round mag into the gun after the first 30/40/50 round mag and pull back the charging handle to feed a new round. Yet, it won't work again. It will close on the next mag when emptied. Using stripper clips will make it work right after the first rounds. I'm looking into that. Why doesn't that piece of metal react and retreat when you fire off the second mag? Why does it react on the normal 10 fixed box?... I've got to know.

Wayne
 
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