Legal Risks in buying Used Guns

J

JustThisGuy

New member
I've looked through the threads and haven't seen one that exactly covers this. I've seen some posts that cover portions of this, but none that cover all points. If so, please link the url and we can close this thread.

So far I have only bought new guns. I would like to buy a few used guns and I might from a FFL dealer, but I'm somehow worried about buying used from a private party or at a Gun Show.

Here's my concern. What liabilities do I have if it is later discovered that the gun I buy turns out to have been used in the commission of a crime?

1) Could I become a suspect in a crime I didn't commit?
2) Would my gun be seized for evidence?
3) Would I ever get it back, or just be out the gun and the money I paid?

What are the best ways to mitigate this risk?
A) Obviously, I need to keep receipts (with serial numbers) to prove the date of acquisition vs. the date of a gun-involved crime.
B) I understand that it is rare to find a PD that will conduct a background check on a gun S/N before a purchase, and that some will do so if you bring them the gun after purchase, but then you might lose the gun.

Is it better to just stay away from used private party/Gun Show guns? Or does one just accept the risk and cross the fingers?
 
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Any used good bought may be required as an evidence because of its previous life with its former owner.
Imagine the ever extending use of computer forensic, and that's why when I recycle old computers for educational use the receipt from the previous owner either it was a gift or a purchase must state "Hard Disk Removed". New HDD come cheap and I don't want to have the PC seized from a school because the PO's IP was logged in a Charlie Papa investigation.
Further to the "evidence" issue there are problems about finance and repossession, so, unless you think that the seller is reliable, the only solution is to buy used, but from a gunshop.

YMMV

K.
 
1) Could I become a suspect in a crime I didn't commit?
Most suspects did not commit the crime under investigation. As long as you have documentation that shows you did not own the gun when the crime was committed (signed receipt) , I see no problem. That said, I don't have a receipt for any gun I bought face to face. I don't commit crimes with them and am not in fear of being investigated.

2) Would my gun be seized for evidence?
Possibly, if your gun was used in a crime and law enforcement agencies knew this and knew you were the present owner. t's hard to imagine that happening as no guns are registered to me. Also, it's not like the detective is going to pull a bullet from a 10 year old crime and determine it was fired from my S&W model XX, serial number YYYYYY anyway. Something else would have to make me a suspect and like I said, I don't engage in criminal activity.

3) Would I ever get it back, or just be out the gun and the money I paid?
I wouldn't count on getting it back. I wouldn't count on getting a gun back if seized as evidence in a justified shooting. One reason not to carry a tricked-out expensive pistol for SD.
 
If you look at shear production numbers, ie; millions of 870 shotguns alone have been made, and how few crimes there are comparable to the # of weapons made your odds are extremely low of you finding a weapon used in a crime.

Unless you're buying it from a real shady guy on a street corner at 3am I don't think there is much risk at all. If you don't get a good feeling from the seller and/or they seem like a meth head who may have stolen it then walk away.

You could loose your money if it later gets implicated in a crime. However, again, I think that is extremely unlikely and not worth always paying the mark up at the local shop. If it buys you peace of mind though, insist everything goes through an FFL and pay the fees.

I know others who insist that NOTHING goes through an FFL. All personal opinion.
 
I buy quite a few guns each year, most of them from non-FFL people. I usually know who it is I am buying a gun from, they are either a friend or someone recommended to me by a friend. So far, no problem.

I record where I purchased it, from whom, how much I paid and the date I acquired the gun.

I have only met three people in the last couple of years that I felt "weird" about and I refused to purchase the guns they offered.

I do know if I purchase a gun and it turns out to be stolen, then I am going to lose the gun. If it is purchased from an FFL, I am going to take him/her to small claims court to get my money back if they do not refund it immediately. Joe Average, I am going to try to get my money back from him and I may end up in small claims court.

Can you buy a stolen gun? Sure, but you need to have a feeling for the guy your buying it from. Make sure the price your paying is correct. (An M-1 Garand offered for $200.00 is a great steal, and the gun probably was.)
 
Huh, at least there is one good thing about NJ permit laws. We have to have a permit for each handgun we buy private or store, and we have to send in the paper work to the state police with the serial #, make, model within 5 days of purchase.

For legal gun buyers I guess it does give us a little reassurance even though I'd gladly trade that for a less PITA system.
 
kadima....Further to the "evidence" issue there are problems about finance and repossession, so, unless you think that the seller is reliable, the only solution is to buy used, but from a gunshop.
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ohen cepel ...If it buys you peace of mind though, insist everything goes through an FFL and pay the fees.
I know others who insist that NOTHING goes through an FFL. All personal opinion.
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Buying a used firearm from a licensed dealer is no guarantee that the firearm has never been reported stolen.
FFL's do not have access to the NCIC to check whether a firearm has been reported stolen. Only LE on official business may use NCIC to run a firearm serial #.
 
FFL's do not have access to the NCIC to check whether a firearm has been reported stolen. Only LE on official business may use NCIC to run a firearm serial #.
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Not entirely true, any dealer can call their local PD and get the numbers run

WildsafewaytodobusinessAlaska ™©2002-2011
 
If you live in a State that requires registration of the firearms you own, I would suggest you fight to change the law or pull up stakes and get the hell out.
 
Secguru,

The risk of #2 & #3 ocurring is about the same whether from a private party purchase or a purchase through a dealer if it develops that the gun was used in a crime.
 
Secguru,
Given that you have "Beirut, Lebanon" listed as your location, I think it's going to be very difficult for most of us to offer much useful insight into your question. While TFL has members from all over, it looks like most of us are from the USA. That's a whole different ballgame in terms of legal liability, chances of seizure of the firearm, etc. Good luck in getting some good info, though.
 
In many states, like mine, a used gun purchased from a private party would belong to you and not be traceable. How would anyone know you own it? Only the person you bought it from might be able to identify you as the owner. But even that is far fetched. How many people keep records of the serial numbers of their guns? Not many for sure. And a private transaction does not require the exchange of personal or serial number information. But, if you live in one of those anti-Constitutional states, and why would you (?) all bets are off.
I had a pistol stolen from me over 20 years ago when I was an FFL dealer. I notified, with serial number, all local and state authorities, the ATF, the FBI and the authorities in the state where the thief was reported to have moved. To date, I have heard nothing.
 
Be Careful Out There

Of course this did not happen to me but to an aquaintance whose name I never learned.

He was once given (FREE!) a Tec-22 pistol. A real piece of junk. It literally had to be held together with rubber bands to prevent it flying apart when fired. It jammed every few rounds. He worked on it for a while but never got it to run right.

One day he took the lining out of the official Tec-22 pistol case, and discovered hidden there a sear which had been illegally altered to allow this piece of junk pistol to fire full automatic. Not that it probably ever did, since it couldn't get through more than three rounds semi-auto without jamming.

Now. What kind of idiot risks commiting a federal crime, for the thrill of trying to fire a piece of junk .22 pistol on full auto? A complete fool, in my opinion.

My aquaintance took that crazy illegal sear and ditched it somewhere it will bring no further trouble to anyone. Then he thought about what might have happened if someone in the legal profession had been the first to thoroughly check out that pistol case. When my aquaintance told the previous owner about the sear, the previous owner turned quite pale. He had never thought to take the lining out of the pistol case.

Be really careful about what you buy from a stranger, fellas. Get a good address and a bill of sale.
 
As a point of interest, years ago I had a gun stolen with other possessions from my residence. I had purchased the gun new. Don't ya know the gun was later used in the commission of a crime and in fact, a person was shot with my gun. I was contacted by the local police and showed them the original police report of my gun being stolen. I was then told they had it in the evidence locker and I could possibly get it back after it was no longer needed.

I called the Evidence Officer about every 3 months for about two years to check on the status of the gun. One day I called and much to my surprise, I was told to come pick up the gun, which I did. It was in good condition and it rejoined its place in my collection. As the story goes, that particular gun happened to be in my night stand when it was stolen. All my other guns were locked in the safe and the thieves never attempted to get into it....a testament to the sturdiness of the safe.
 
In the United States --

If you are found in possession of a gun, or anything, that's been identified as stolen, you will have some explaining to do. It's generally illegal to knowing acquire stolen property. You'll probably be okay if you have documentation of the transaction and can identify both from whom you bought it and when. But under most circumstances this shouldn't be too much of a problem. And the better and more complete the documentation, the easier things will be for you to sort out.

If you are found in possession of a gun, or anything, that can be identified has having been stolen, you will lose it. You can not acquire legal title to stolen property. Since thief did not become the legal owner of the thing by stealing it, no one else down the chain of possession can become the legal owner. The guy from whom it was originally stolen, as long as he can prove ownership, is entitled to the thing back. You'll be out the money unless you can get it back from the guy you bought it from.

If are found in possession of a gun that somehow is connected to a past crime, you'll also have some explaining to do. Again, if you have documentation of the transaction -- when and from whom it was acquired -- you should be okay. Again, the better and more complete the documentation, the easier things will be for you to sort out.

Now the question might come up, "How will you be found in possession of a gun that has been reported stolen?" Maybe it's highly unlikely, but sometimes strange things happen. For example, you might be in an auto accident while going to or from the range. You are injured and taken to a hospital. Your property in the car is inventoried and held until it can be claimed on your behalf. The police do a routine serial number check on the gun and find it was reported stolen.

Documenting private transaction can be a ticklish matter. Some sellers, and some buyers, don't want a paper trial for a variety of reason. It will be up to you to decide how much risk you're willing to accept.
 
Not entirely true, any dealer can call their local PD and get the numbers run
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And, also, not necessarily true.

Local and department regulations prevent officers in my area from accessing ANY database, without a need dictated by "police business". Running serial numbers, address histories (dispatch or 911 databases), license plates, or anything else that requires access to a database, for any other reason, results in administrative action - if they're caught.

It sounds like a bad thing, but keeps the information from flowing freely into the hands of those that don't really need it. It sucks when I can't get vehicle owner information by giving a LE friend a plate number, or when I can't run the numbers on a potential FTF gun purchase; but it keeps everyone with a cop friend from knowing about the (stupid) traffic citation I got when I was 17, or knowing that I was investigated as a potential domestic terrorist in 2001. (Long story - I'll summarize with: Post-9/11 media panic + Ryder truck + road-raged motorist that thought it would be funny to tell the FBI I was going to blow up a dam = A really interesting week.)
 
Thanks everyone for the excellent and informative answers. For the poster who noticed I'm in Beirut, I live and work here, but I also have homes in the US (hardly ever get there though).

Over here, I can't carry, or even own. All I can do is think of my gun safe, read TFL everyday and salivate.
 
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