Legal Pitfalls of LEO-Only Ammo?

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oldbillthundercheif

Moderator
Since my 1911 needs a new barrel (trust me, it does) I have been carrying a Hi-Power recently. 15+1 rounds of Winchester Ranger +P+ 9mm seems good enough to take care of business, but...

Am I leaving myself open to potential legal problems if I were to use this "Law Enforcement Only" ammunition in a personal defense situation?

I picked up a fairly large amount of this ammo as my pistol groups it very well and is completely reliable with it, but now I am having second thoughts. Does carrying the hottest, nastiest 9mm loading on the planet make the user look like a Rambo-wannabe geek to the average juror?
 
I'm not saying it's correct or right for everybody, but I carry it also. I would rather be able to try and explain my reasoning. If it's good enough for the police, I think it would be difficult to find fault with it in court without also finding fault with law enforcement as well. It's not illegal to carry or buy. It's made and marketed for Law Enforcement. There is a big difference.
But to the average Joe non gun guy. I still think they could be swayed into believing you're Jack the Ripper no matter what ammo you carry.
 
I realize that a prosecuting attorney can make something out of nothing sometimes.

:eek: he was using a semi-auto pistol:eek:
:eek: he was using hollow point bullets which are designed to kill a man:eek:

I think using a standard round that is issued or approved for local law enforcment would be in your favor though.
 
definitely use the round that the local police uses. worst come to worst you can supoena the police armorer to testify why they chose the round and why it's appropriate to carry on the street.
 
I don't think any blueguys around here use the 9mm. They use black plastic .40s and revolvers (no joke).

I'm thinking that using this ammo is defensible but would like some more feedback. Isn't anyone here going to disagree with me?
 
Bottom line, if its a good shoot its a good shoot. I don't care if you carry the Super Death Dealer 3000 with green beret only ammo. If you have a competent attorney then you will be fine.
 
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I believe the "For Law Enforcment Only" designation is put on this ammuniton to exempt it from the PITTMAN-ROBERTSON ACT 11% ammunition tax.

IIRC, someone posted that here at one point.

It doesn't have anything to do with the physical charactersitics of the ammunition.

"Am I leaving myself open to potential legal problems "

I doubt it.
Whoever sold it to you might though.
Worst thing I can see is that someone will come after you for 11% of your purchase (if what I mentioned above is correct).
 
Bottom line, if its a good shoot its a good shoot. I don't care if you carry the Super Death Dealer 3000 with green beret only ammo. If you have a competent attorney then you will be fine.
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I agree 100%...unless, of course, the jury decides to ignore the facts and evidence so they can apply the law the way they want to apply it and convict you anyway.
 
Which will be overturned on appeal. As a jury you can only ignore the evidence if you are going to acquit.
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The point I was trying to make, however clumsily, is that as you said a good shoot is a good shoot. It doesn't and shouldn't matter whether you use a .22LR or the .999 BMG Super-Duper SEAL team only, extreme bussload of nun-killing ammo. If the jury examines the evidence and decides you were in fear for your life (or whatever the legal standard in a particular state) what kind of ammo you used shouldn't make a difference.

That said, in the past few days we've seen guys who think its a jury's duty to occasionally ignore the evidence so they can misapply the law when it fits their needs and biases (ie. jury nullification). If we advocate opening that Pandora's box, then we should all be more wary of what we use. Soccer moms and anti-gunners sit on juries too. They can just as easily ignore exculpatory evidence, or afford it such little weight, in such a case so they can misapply the law when it fits their anti-gun biases. An overzealous anti-gun prosecutor could easily try to turn the jury against the (justified) shooter by portraying him as a lunatic with murderous intent from the outset because he used .999 BMG Super-Duper SEAL team only, extreme bussload of nun-killing ammo. Sure the jury may not come out and say they voted to convict because they don't like guns or gun owners, but hey, we can't inquire into the minds of the jurors so its their "right"...right?;)
 
I think the LE only thing is also meant to protect the manufacturer from lawsuits, as at least one box of +P+ I own says "loaded above SAAMI levels" and so whomever the dealer is that sells it to you is liable, in case your theoretical prewar rusty relic blows up from the ammo, the maker can beg off on it. Like "we do not make this ammo available to the public, and the box has a ton of disclaimers on it". Of course it is the good stuff if your gun likes it and doesn't wear out prematurely from excessive use. Cops can take all that confiscated drug money and buy all the new guns they want if the ammo wrecks the guns after a few years of qualifying with it. I can't afford that so my ammo is just for reserve and perhaps CCW use. Some nuts in gov't might decide to illegalize it and then you would have something valuable on the shelf too. I say if you can use the same handgun as the local police, the same ammo is no more detrimental to your cause. Enjoy! That is of course if we are talking standard carry ammo. There was some ammo that was for LE only that was armour piercing at one time, I don't think you could skate by with that stuff.
 
Tom2 nailed it.

This will be no trick to explain to a jury if opposing counsel tries to make a big deal out of your using LE Only +P+ JHP in your 9mm. The answer is a simple, powerful sound-bite: "If it was good enough for law enforcement to use to protect me and my family, I felt it was good enough for me to use to protect myself and my family.

I personally wouldn't worry about it. For those who do worry about it, +P+ 115 grain 9mm JHP in boxes NOT marked "law enforcement only" are produced by smaller firms such as Black Hills, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, and DoubleTap. Speer's excellent 124 grain +P Gold Dot is very similar ballistically to Winchester's LE Only 127 grain +P+ Ranger, is available to the general public, and not marked "LE Only." It is standard issue for the 9mms of Chicago and NYPD cops, and has worked very well on the streets of both cities.

Bill is right to get the answers on this nailed down beforehand. For anyone to suggest that "fretting done about overzealous prosecutors is wasted fretting" is like Sarah Brady saying that you worrying about violent criminals enough to arm yourself is paranoid.

BS. The overzealous prosecutor, the exaggerating plaintiff's lawyer, and the violent criminal are all very real creatures, and all are worth preparing for beforehand.

Preparation is a strategy. Wishful thinking is not.
 
I appreciate all viewpoints on this dire subject. I won't be doing any fretting, though. I will, however, be taking my legal advice from real lawyers, judges, and district attorneys.

I suppose I'd look at things differently if I had spent most of my adult life in New England. ;)
 
I suppose I'd look at things differently if I had spent most of my adult life in New England.
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Would you please clarify this comment? I'm not at all certain how it relates to this topic. :confused:
 
This will be no trick to explain to a jury if opposing counsel tries to make a big deal out of your using LE Only +P+ JHP in your 9mm.
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Just keep in mind that juries are comprised of 12 individuals who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty. An attorney comes in and confuses them with the difference between standard, +P, and +P+, and they're the ones who are going to decide your fate.
 
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