Legal/NRA: NRA originally against DC HG ban case?

A Shot at the Second Amendment: If the U.S. Supreme Court rules on a right to bear arms, the decision may be in spite of the powerful NRA gun lobby—not because of it by John Gibeaut



The U.S. Supreme Court had not even decided whether to take the case when National Rifle Association lobbyist Wayne LaPierre fired off the distress flare:

“The biggest Second Amendment court battle in history is about to begin—one that will have a huge impact on you, your children and every other American gun owner for generations to come,” LaPierre wrote in an August fundraising letter to the NRA’s 4.3 million members. “And I’m not exaggerating a bit.”

He’s probably right there.

The NRA wants money—lots of it—to make sure the District of Columbia’s handgun ban stays buried good and deep. That’s where an appeals court left it after an unprecedented decision early this year that killed it as a violation of the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms.

The decision on March 9 by a split panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit marked the first time that a federal appellate court used the amendment to invalidate a gun-control regulation.

The district has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to resurrect the city ordinance containing the ban, which also requires owners to secure rifles and shotguns with trigger locks or keep them disassembled. District of Columbia v. Heller, No. 07-290. The justices are expected to decide by early November whether to accept the case. It may give the court the clearest chance ever to say once and for all whether the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to own guns, as the D.C. Circuit held, or merely affords states a way to arm their militias, as nearly every other court to consider the issue has concluded.

If the tone of LaPierre’s letter didn’t sound urgent enough, he used plenty of underlined boldface type and capital letters to drive home his point. He told the faithful a top-notch brief may cost as much as $1.2 million.

“For gun owners and NRA members, this is the biggest legal battle that we have ever fought, or will ever fight—and its outcome will probably impact every law-abiding American gun owner,” LaPierre wrote in the five-page letter. “It is a battle we simply cannot afford to lose.”

Here’s where LaPierre heads into a wrong turn: It’s not an NRA case. In fact, the gun rights supporters who filed it complain that lawyers working for the NRA, concerned the case could backfire, spent considerable time and money trying to scuttle it. The association finally was dragged kicking and screaming before the Supreme Court after the prospect of review appeared more likely than it has in years.

“They recognized this was a good case and D.C. was the perfect place,” says plaintiffs lawyer Robert A. Levy, a senior fellow at Washington’s libertarian Cato Institute. “That’s what concerned them.”

Levy, who is bankrolling and pushing Heller to the Supreme Court out of his own pocket and on his own time, says the NRA first sent two lawyers to try to dissuade him from filing the case. After that failed, Levy says the NRA tried to hijack the case by filing a competing case, then trying to consolidate the two.

To boot, Levy says, the NRA supports congressional legislation to repeal the gun ban, which could render Heller moot. He also wonders why the NRA waited more than 25 years to challenge the 1976 D.C. ordinance.

BREAKING A CASE

NRA lawyers say they’re engaged in nothing more than prudent case selection in much the same way the NAACP incrementally approached civil rights litigation—one baby step at a time.

But although they fought the Heller plaintiffs at the onset, the NRA ultimately couldn’t stay away. Its leaders just can’t afford to let members and contributors see them get cold feet after years of waiting for a Second Amendment case to reach the Supreme Court, confides one lawyer who regularly represents the association as outside counsel.

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman at NRA headquarters in Fairfax, Va., declined comment on the case. However, he says, the NRA continues to support legislative repeal, first proposed in 2003 but given little chance of passage before the Supreme Court decides what to do with Heller. The association also filed an amicus brief in the D.C. Circuit supporting the Heller plaintiffs, and it intends to file another in the Supreme Court if the justices grant cert, he says.

Arulanandam also says he believes the NRA previously had gone to court against the district, perhaps during the ban’s early days, but he was unable to provide details. The first challenges came to the D.C. Circuit only recently in Levy’s case, 478 F.3d 370 (March 9), and in the NRA-sponsored competitor, which the appeals court pitched for standing. Seegars v. Gonzales, 396 F.3d 1248 (2005).

“We’ve been involved in this issue longer than anyone else,” says Arulanandam. “For anyone else to say they have an exclusive right to this issue is extremely arrogant. As long as there’s been a gun ban in the District of Columbia, we’ve been involved.”

But it’s not the first time the NRA and other gun rights advocates have found themselves at cross-purposes. A California gun rights lawyer gripes that the NRA argued against him and his clients in 2003 in their challenge to the state’s bar on assault weapons, only to switch sides and use the same argument to support the plaintiffs when they asked the Supreme Court to take the case.

(continued here)
 
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You have to understand what a threat this is to the NRA. Gun bans are the best thing that ever happened to them. If gun bans become a non-issue, the NRA loses a lot of money.
 
The longer I have been an NRA member, the more convinced I have become that the NRA neither supports the 2nd amendment nor its members. I think it basically has come to support only itself--its own power, prerogatives, privileges, perks, pensions and pay for its staff. Whatever will profit those goals NRA supports, whatever doesn't profit those goals NRA opposes. To that end, gun bans are good for the NRA because it is able to continue to fundraise at a furious pace from worried constituents, while actually not doing anything substantive with the money except expanding the organization's bureauocracy ever more. Just one disappointed member's opinion.
 
Oh, I think the NRA supports the 2nd amendment... in a very watered down form, stripped of all philosophical underpinnings and implications of conflict between government and the people. I also think that the NRA has a fair degree of contempt for the members, who it views as suffering from a dangerous degree of political naivety. We have to be saved from our own crude tendency to reject compromise, and embrace the best as the enemy of the good, by being manipulated into doing the sensible thing.

A lot of the abuses we've seen make sense if you figure LaPierre and company think the end justifies the means when it comes to herding lemmings away from a cliff face.
 
You have to understand what a threat this is to the NRA. Gun bans are the best thing that ever happened to them. If gun bans become a non-issue, the NRA loses a lot of money.

You have to understand what a threat this case is to the RKBA. I know, everyone is hailing it as the end of gun control, that the decision is guaranteed to roll our way.

It's not. This case could easily blow the RKBA out of the water. Only very recently has there been signs for real hope, and they could evaporate over night.

The history of Supreme Court decisions is one of people gasping and asking "how could they do that?" The NRA knew that, and this case scared it, along with many other RKBA purists who understand that being absolutely sure how the Supremes will rule is false.
 
Several years ago(in ’91 ..I think), I "cornered " a NRA-ILA guy at an election action committee seminar. I was asking why they weren’t doing more in the courts to force a ruling on 2A. He told me straight up that they weren’t interested in that fight because they were afraid of being delivered a crushing blow. With the political climate the way it is (was), a significant loss in SCOTUS could have us simultaneously fighting even more battles than we do now. Imagine having to oppose 50 significant bad pieces of legislation instead of 5 in one year. The make-up of the court is different now, but not as much as you might think. I was seriously P.O.ed , but the guy made a very valid point.
Over the next few years, I became so disheartened with them that I called headquarters to renounce my life membership. I told them that there was no way in hell that I was going to send any more money until they took a much harder stance. The NRA rep on the phone seemed very responsive to my complaints and convinced me to remain a member. She also said that I was not alone and that NRA was taking notice.
Conversations with other NRA reps were pretty much the same. NRA plays conservatively and mostly defense.
The overall impression I’ve gotten is that they are afraid of losing it all on a single roll of the dice. .. and they view SCOTUS as a big gamble.
The game they know best is lobbying and throwing money at congressmen. When the NRA talks, congressmen take it seriously and over the last few years they have done fairly well. Don’t kid yourselves about GOA, JPFO, and other similar groups …(although my heart may be with them) … they don’t have the weight to throw to really effect change.
In short, DON’T DENEGRATE THE NRA IN PUBLIC. If you have a problem with them … call them and give them a piece of your mind. Have the guts to face the source of your frustration rather than gripe to the world on a message board.
The NRA’s stance may be a bit too soft for me, but most of the time their heart is in the right place… and they’re the biggest dog in town.
If you want to be more aggressive in defending gun rights, join and promote a more aggressive group but don’t tear down the NRA in the process.
 
Of course this case is a threat to RKBA, if it goes the wrong way.

However, the course we have been on for the last 40 years (or longer) is certain to end with a complete destruction of RKBA.

So what we have, if we are the NRA, there is a choice:

1 continue with the holding action, with a destruction of RKBA at the end of the road, but make billions of dollars in the meantime

or

2 go for broke, and have at least an even chance of securing RKBA
 
So what we have, if we are the NRA, there is a choice:

1 continue with the holding action, with a destruction of RKBA at the end of the road, but make billions of dollars in the meantime

or

2 go for broke, and have at least an even chance of securing RKBA

How about:

3 Hold the line against further direct infringements while building a base of popular support through concealed carry reform, education, and lower court cases?

Seems the NRA has been following that tact for a while, with considerable success (and occasional foulups). Of course, that's the long-term plan rather than "risk everything on the role of the dice" bit that some hope will have a machinegun in every stocking by Christmas but has the same chance of having the RKBA castrated for the foreseeable future, if not forever.
 
Once the NRA got a taste of real political power they stopped being a proponent of their members.
Just like AARP stopped being for old folks once it became an insurance carrier.
 
So the DC gun ban has been there for 30 years. The machine gun ban for 20. The federal gun free school zones act for about ten, depending on how you measure it.

And the second amendment has done nothing to stop any of it.

A while back on this forum I announced my "intention" to file a suit to overturn the gun free school zones act again. I was told I'd have to have "standing" to file such a suit, which I couldn't get without getting prosecuted. That standing rule, further reinforced by the failed Seegars case the NRA used to try to gain control over the Parker/Heller case, may yet be undone by Parker/Heller.

I was further told that the nearly universal consensus of federal courts was that the 2A didn't do anything for me unless I was in a militia and talking about militia weapons. That aspect may also be undone.

If neither of those rules goes away, we're back where we started, but at least we know where we are!

Basically, the 2A under the current standing rules and interpretation is completely eviscerated. It's meaningless. No gun control legislation has been overturned on 2A grounds, despite an abundance of candidates. It does absolutely nothing for me.

If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.
 
Shaking my head. . .

Some of you folks need to get away from the house and travel a little. Grab your guns and head over to Australia and find some mates to do a little IPSC with.

When you're finished with that, take a boat ride to New Zealand and challenge the local gun owners who aren't members of any club to some PPC matches. Enjoy the beauty of New Zealand while you're there.

Maybe give Great Britain a try, but make sure you take your para-ordinance or your Tec-9 for some CQC fun with the localy blimeys who keep their guns under their pillows like we do here in America.

When you're done, bring your targets back here and post them and then regale us with tales of how easy it was to get your weapons in and out of those countries and how the good ol' boys and gals were lined up four-wide with their own gun bags bulging and weighing them down waiting to show your American Yankee behind up.

Oh, and in between showing us targets and regaling us with tales of gun-owner comaraderiatey that exists overseas, we'll give you a status report of the Second Amendment as it exists today, thanks to the NRA and others like them.

Or, if you like, we could paint a "what if" picture if bozos like Howard Metzenbaum and Patsy Schroeder had simply been ignored because there were no NRA or groups like them.

What fun it will be for all!

Jeff
 
“We’ve been involved in this issue longer than anyone else,” says Arulanandam. “For anyone else to say they have an exclusive right to this issue is extremely arrogant. As long as there’s been a gun ban in the District of Columbia, we’ve been involved.”

later in the article...

After they had assembled a group of six plaintiffs, Levy and Neily filed Parker on Feb. 10, 2003. Also on board by then was Alexandria, Va., litigator Alan Gura. He would do most of the heavy lifting, crafting pleadings and arguments as the case slogged on for four years. But Levy and his lawyers hadn’t heard the last of the NRA.

Seven weeks later, on April 4, the NRA filed Seegars through veteran outside counsel Stephen P. Halbrook of Fairfax, Va. Without even calling the Parker lawyers first, he moved to consolidate Seegars and Parker. Levy and his colleagues were not pleased.

“You just don’t do that to another lawyer,” Neily says. “Honestly, that set the tone for things. It was not well-received.”

OK, who is the arrogant party trying to assert exclusive control again?
 
TSR, I agree that the situations are worse elsewhere, but that's still telling me I should be happy with poison ivy and warts from head to toe just because others have leprosy and nuclear radiation skin burns.
 
Publius, when I first read this thread last evening, my first thought was to make the merge. Glad I waited.

While this is on-topic for the mega thread, it is also an excellent topic in its own right. The Heller case is actualy tangental to the theme of this thread.

I like the NRA. I support the organization. When I am disappointed/in opposition/angered over their tactics, I call and tell them.

This isn't another "bash the NRA" thread (and it won't long be one, should it head in that direction), so much as how they work - or don't work, as the case may be. That's a valid and seperate topic from the mega thread.

Hope you see the differences.
 
What I am saying is that internal disagreements between those in the RKBA camp should remain internal. Making public statements accusing NRA of taking members' money merely to support itself are of no help. If you have a beef with the way they are operating, take it to them. Let them know that the lock comes off of your checkbook when they do as you wish. If they hear the message from enough people, they will respond.
For a long time, the group some refer to as "fudds" have been the most vocal and thus the most powerful inside the NRA. I would like to see that changed to the "rabid pro-RKBA on principal". Why not? That's what they are accused by the media of being anyway.
As for tactics, I don't pretend to know whether or not this is the right time for a Supreme court battle. I hope it is, and I hope that it inspires the NRA to use it's resources to go on the offensive.


Edit: I need to learn to type faster. "Anti" stole my thunder by a good 10 minutes.
 
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What the NRA wants is a legislative cure not a judicial one. We all make mistakes even the NRA. The case went to court...now its all water under the bridge.
 
yellowfin said:
TSR, I agree that the situations are worse elsewhere, but that's still telling me I should be happy with poison ivy and warts from head to toe just because others have leprosy and nuclear radiation skin burns.

Actually, my intent in my post--which I probably did a lousy job of--was to communicate that similar forms of government do everything they can to disarm their citizens and turn them into subjects. Thus my UK/colonies example.

I belive the NRA has been VERY effective in stemming the inevitable. When I got out of law enforcement and went into advertising, I worked on the NRA account and was "an insider" as to what was going on.

A lot of what I read sounds like the garbage coming straight from little Richie Feldman's sewer hole. And keep in mind, Feldman is the same guy that sold gun owners up the river on more than one occasion with his compromises.

One campaign I particularly enjoyed was the "We'll ask: Where Were You?" campaign. Old-timers here will probably remember it. It was extraordinarily effective in raising membership levels as well as participation levels.

The point of that campaign wasn't just "Are you a member?" Far from it. The point was also, "what are you doing to help us beat back the inevitable anti-gun state?"

I'm a member of several other associations, one of which is the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association. At the moment, we're faced with the prospect of what is being called "user fees" every time we fly. These would be "pay as you use" fees enacted by the FAA. If we were not paying in any other way, that would be one thing. But in general aviation, you pay a significant tax per gallon on avgas. That tax goes directly into a "general aviation fund," which currently is sitting in something like nine or ten figures.

Yet the governemnt will not spend that money on what it is supposed to go far which is the continued maintenance and improvement of aviation as it applies to general aviation.

The AOPA is fighting like mad to beat back users fees and so far has done an admiral job. Were it NOT for the AOPA, we'd already have them.

Were it NOT for the NRA, we'd already have a whole lot more gun control measures and laws on the books.

But the problem is, typically only five percent of a population is willing to put their money where their mouth is in terms of dues-paying membership. Look at the number of gun-owners in America versus the number of dues-paying NRA members.

If even half of the estimated 70 million gun owners were dues paying NRA members, we'd have ZERO gun control laws and would be able to repeal the ones that are on the books. We'd be unstoppable as a PAC/special interest group.

What government would want to directly cross or take on 35 million law-abiding, armed citizens?

No, we on these type of forums and who are members of NRA are not the problem, nor is the association.

The problem is with the apathetic slugs who ride our coattails and enjoy the fruits of victory without ever having to sew a single seed.

Jeff
 
Jeff, you make a good point (except that you sow seeds and sew textiles;))

Antipitas, if you say so, boss! :cool:

Your comments led me to reread the response to cert petition and the cross petition. Now my brain hurts and my head feels like it has a bunch of extra water inside it, but I think I have a new thought.

Regarding the standing issue and the group who were kicked for lack of standing, something struck me: both the cert petition from DC (in a dishonest kind of way) and the response to cert petition (in part) said that the issue could all be boiled down to one issue: the handgun ban.

Both sides basically asked the Court to ignore the parts which related to Parker and the rest and just decide the hangun ban and Heller individually.

The question the Court will decide includes things no one was asking for, except Parker and the rest in the cross petition. Suggests to me that the SC might take this opportunity to reverse Seegars/Navegar, which conflicts with SC precedent.

Wishful thinking, or am I making sense?
 
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