Legal bills for self-defense shooting

B

Brent

New member
I just took the mandatory course for getting a concealed carry permit in Texas. The instructor said that if you shoot someone, it will cost $35,000 to $50,000 in legal bills, even if the grand jury decides not to indict you. I have a couple of questions:

1) Is it true that in a self-defense shooting , the defender is going to have to shell out these big bucks, just to get no-billed by the grand jury?

2) Is there some type of insurance available that insures the defender against criminal legal costs?

3) Do umbrella insurance policies generally cover civil liability for self-defense?

4) The author of one self-defense book recommends that a defender not report an incident, if at all possible, so that the defender does not have to rack up legal bills. Do you agree with the author's advice?

Thank you for any comments you may have.
 
1) I don't see how, since the case doesn't go trial until the grand jury returns a true bill.

2) Not that I know of.

3) See #2.

4) If there's been no shots fired, personally, I wouldn't report it. If the goblin is lying on your floor in a bleeding heap, however, you'll have some 'splainin' to do if you don't call it in. Too bad we can't just throw him in the dumpster, eh? ;)
 
Brent..
I agree with Coin on #1...but, after the GJ has given a go, you pay or cast your fate to a Public Defender.

Not to mention if you get served a civil suit

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited March 28, 2000).]
 
Mass Ayoob said a couple of years ago that to defend yourself against the civil suit that is almost sure to be brought against you by the badguy's survivors, even in a totally righteous, non-indictable shooting, you can figure your legal bills will total $150,000 to $200,000. All the other side needs is a lawyer willing to have a go at you for a contingency fee.
 
I would suggest contacting the American Self Defense Institute at http://www.americanselfdefense.com and look into membership. They have a lawyer referral set up for those that have been involved in a self defensive shooting.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I've heard at a few TX classes that a no-bill will run you $5000. However, once you go to trial - who knows.

It gives you pause from some of the chest pounding you hear on gun forums. Even us!
 
Brent,

1) The only reason a defense attorney should be involved prior to indictment is if you feel you need one before explaining your actions to LE. That decision is totally up to you. In a civil suit, on the other paw, you'll need one as soon as you get the legal notice.

2) I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

3) Not any that I know of.

4) Ah. Hmm. I cannot give you any advice on this one. I can give you something to think about, but in the end, it's up to you.

LawDog's Rule #39: Your life, or someone elses life, better be on the line before you haul out that smokewagon.

Given Rule #39, and you have displayed a firearm to prevent harm to you or someone else, do you want that critter wandering about to try the same thing to someone who may not be as prepared as yourself?

LawDog's Rule#125: Critters lie. Always.

If you have displayed that weapon and driven off your current Minion of Evil, you have made him less of a man. In his eyes, at the very least. Nothing would make him happier than to wander down to the first cop he sees and describe in lurid detail how he was out for his evening consituitional when you brandished a firearm, thereby putting him in fear of his very life.

Or, busted on a two-bit theft charge, he decides that it would be a grand joke to tie your name to whatever assorted graphic crimes that would induce a naive puppy to give him a suspended sentence in return for the critter's civic duty in reporting your dope dealing/occult-orientated/white slavery/gerbil-raising/crime du jour criminal activities.

Just my two cents worth, though.

LawDog
 
Wasn't there a law passed here in Tx recently that said if you were injured during the comission of a crime (don't remember if it was a felony level or a misdemeanor) that you had no civil recourse? I remember it was shot down several times, but I heard it passed. I guess I should be more up on my laws, so sue me. :) Ha ha.
 
I am aware of many self defense shootings that were no billed by the grand jury here in Georgia. I am unaware of any civil suits for wrongful death arising from these. Apparently, attorneys here don't like the odds of winning. The only person I know who was sued was first found innocent of murder.

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Byron Quick
 
Personally (and speaking STRICTLY for myself), I would be hard-pressed to call the authorites, ESPECIALLY if the goblin was dead on my floor. Hypothetically speaking, I might wait 30 minutes to see if a cruiser responded to the scene, and if NOT, well, some plastic sheeting and a handy car-trunk, coupled with a trip to the piney-woods, would seem the proper alternative.

Better for me, better for my family, and the goblin would no longer care...

Hypothetically speaking...
 
It depends on the state. Here in Oklahoma, there exists a so called " make My Day Law" which makes it impossible for a perpetrator or others to persue legal action against a homowner who uses deadly force against him if he is an uninvited guest, or remains in the domicile against the will of the lawful occupants provided that the lawful occupants 'feel' threatened. the catch is that the law only applies in the home. On the street when there are no witnesses, who cares?
 
I think that TLC has wrestled with this question several times in the past. But, I will say that if you are involved in a self defense shooting, alot will depend on the investigating LEO. And I don't mean the beat cop who is the first responder. I don't know about where you live, but here in Arizona all shootings will be reviewed by the District Attorney. You can bet that the very least you will get is a trip downtown to make a statement. What I tell my students is that even under the best circumstances, you need to do the following:

1) Keep your mouth shut. Only tell the cops only what they really need to know. ie. "This guy broke into my house, killed my attack dog with a spoon and then attacked me. I was in fear of my life or for the lives of my family, I had to STOP(...NOT "smoke, waste, blow away, tap, drill, fill full of lead, colonderize, give a .45 enema", and so on") him.

In Arizona, and probably the entire country, the politically correct response is you shoot to stop the attack. I even heard the head of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team on tv state that the policy of the FBI is to shoot to stop, not to kill. (Yeah right.Do ya wanna buy a bridge? ;) )

2) Don't trust the cops to do the right thing by you. These people are human too and have the same failings as everyone else. You might draw some ding-dong that's trying to make fast rank and will have no problem doing it on your back.

3)If things between you and the cops start getting a bit sticky, SHUT UP! The only thing out of your mouth from that point on is "I want to see my lawyer". If you are told you don't need a lawyer at this point because these are only routine questions, or they are you buddy and want to help you, WATCH OUT!!!!! They are starting to set you up.

As far as the civil law suites go, you can bet that this will happen if the mutant's family are anything like him. I blame ambulance chasing trial lawyers for this. If they had any moral fiber these cases would never make it to the courts. There are good lawyers, I have one, but the slimballs are out there.

I advocate that when you make the decision to strapona gun you should have at th every least the name of a lawyer that you can call in a bad situation. If youdo not know of one, contact your local NRA, GOA or Brass Roots organization to get a list of lawyers that specialize and ARE SYMPATHETIC to the rights of gun owners. Meet with one and get, keep and carry thier buisiness card.

In response to #4, if you don't report any use of firearms, you can be in for some real problems. Like LawDog indicated, bad guys lie. Your best defense is a good offense, so if you brandished a weapon to fend off an attack, report it. Get the law on your side as fast as possible. Don't embellish, tell exactly what happened in your words. If you start playing catch up, you are more than likely going to get screwed. Generally speaking, the person who reports first, wins.

Second, don't drag the bad guy back into your house, leave him where he fell. A smart investigator can tell if that happened, keep everything as simple as possible. The less loose ends the better. If you try to hide any evidence of the event, you will be hard pressed to remember thelittle details under pressure and that will only weaken your case.

Okay, that's enough. I could go on and on, but you guysareprobably getting bored.
 
Lawdog,

In my CHL class here in Texas, which was partially taught by a Dallas County Constable, we learned to ALWAYS get an attorney even before giving a statement to the police. A little money up front may save you from the hassle of a grand jury in the first place and perhaps head off any wrong headed lawsuits. Heck, even police officers receive counsel after a shoot before they give a statement. If it is a good idea for a police officer, how much more important is it for the average citizen?

Joe

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Joe's Second Amendment Message Board
 
Nralife, like I said, it's up to you.

This is based on my experiences, Your Mileage May Vary:

If I got to the scene of a shoot, where everything says "Justified Self-Defense Shoot", and the first thing the homeowner says, "I'm not saying anything until my lawyer gets here."

I'm instantly shifting from, "Sir, let's fill out the legal paperwork and let you get back to your family" to "What are you hiding? Sir, you and your family need to come down to the station and give statements. And when we're done, get a motel, because your house just became a crime scene."

That's just me, though.

LawDog
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LawDog:
If I got to the scene of a shoot, where everything says "Justified Self-Defense Shoot", and the first thing the homeowner says, "I'm not saying anything until my lawyer gets here."

I'm instantly shifting from, "Sir, let's fill out the legal paperwork and let you get back to your family" to "What are you hiding? Sir, you and your family need to come down to the station and give statements. And when we're done, get a motel, because your house just became a crime scene."

That's just me, though.

LawDog[/quote]

Law Dog, I understand how you must find such a homeowner suspicious.
Are we to understand that a different presentation will Not trigger your
suspicion?

For example: same scene, you arrive, the homeowner cooperates, but says
he wants legal council, just like an LEO after a shot, to fill out the report.
Does that still seem suspicious?

Just trying to find a balance point between the extreme examples in previous
posts.

Best regards, Lawdag.

yy.
 
One nice thing about the gun laws in Utah. If a shooting is determined to be justified, the person who shot cannot lose in a civil suit. It doesn't matter where the shooting takes place. A person shooting in self defense cannot be held civilly responsible for the death of his attacker. If the BG's family wants to file suit, they are wasting their efforts unless the state finds you guilty first.
 
[/B] <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LawDog:

If I got to the scene of a shoot, where everything says "Justified Self-Defense Shoot", and the first thing the homeowner says, "I'm not saying anything until my lawyer gets here."

I'm instantly shifting from, "Sir, let's fill out the legal paperwork and let you get back to your family" to "What are you hiding? Sir, you and your family need to come down to the station and give statements. And when we're done, get a motel, because your house just became a crime scene."
[/B][/quote]

Lawdog, if it looks like self-defense, why the sudden change? My CCW instructor impressed on us, and just about everything I've read has said to ask for an attorney before you say anything to police in case of a self-defense shooting.

FYI, my own upbringing says to trust the police and to answer questions truthfully in such a case. So- just wondering, no offense intended.
 
After a shooting, your brain is in turmoil.
You have had a massive adrenalin dump and the rebound from it.
You need to justify your actions.
You may want to brag.
Some police want to make you talk by being your buddy.

In any case - you may babble something stupid.

Not all LEOS and DAs are your friend. It is better to take the ride and talk to your lawyer than take the risk.

Be polite and firm. I have heard this from the best trainers. They say variants of:

1. First say you acted in self-defense
2. Say you will press charges if someone
survived.
Say 1 and 2 SUCCINTLY AND BRIEFLY -THEN

3. Say you will be glad to cooperate after you speak to your lawyer and
you are too upset to speak now.

Then faint if need be.
 
Guys, no offense has been taken.

In my personal experience, someone who has just used Deadly Force to protect his life or the life of a loved one does not have the presence of mind to call a lawyer.

When you take a life, most of us have broken a major rule. There is a sense of having Done Something Wrong. And there is a sense of relief, partly due to the fact that you are alive, and partly due to the effects of your body coming down from the Fight-or-Flight reflex.

So you're happy, relieved and slightly jazzed from the adrenaline, and some Mother's child is dead in front of you. When you realize that you have just extinguished another human being and you're feeling happy, beaucoup shame, guilt and other nasty feelings come crashing down on you.

The one common thread to all of the legitimate shootings was the desperate desire to have someone understand that this awful thing they did was necessary, and that the critter made them do it.

Now, based on my personal experience, if I get to a scene and I find a hysterical, or near-hysterical person, who repeats that he or she didn't want to do it, but the critter made them do it. And the person is staring into my eyes, trying to catch a glimpse of something that says that I understand that it wasn't their fault--then you probably have a good shoot, based on my experience.

Now then, you get to a shoot, and every other shoot you've been to goes as described above--but this time the only thing the person will say is, "I want a lawyer."

confused.gif


In my experience, this is a very wrong reaction.

However, other LEO's from other parts of the country may be used to getting other reactions after shoots. YMMV.

LawDog
 
From the Texas ranger who taught my class, "I have nothing to hide. I am naturally terribly upset by this incedent to stop the deadly assault on me (or my family). I will be happy to answer any questions you have just as soon as I can calm down. Speaking with my attorney will help me do this."
 
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