Lee Tumble lube grease grooves VERSUS Elmer Keith style grease grooves

Hi ya all,

My new Lee molds finally arrived and I did some experiments.

I shot today my new lead Lee .358" diameter 148 grain Wad Cutter Elmer Keith style lube grooves bullet seated 0.098" deep from flush and with 3.0 grains 700X type scavenged shotshell powder. I am from Southamerica and we can not get here gun powder.

With These I get less Penetration with the same powder Charge and seating depth (seated to 0.098" deeper from flush) as with the same depth seated (and same powder Charge) Lee .356" Diameter 124 grain Truncated Cone Tumble Lube lead bullets.

The 148 grain WC penetrated an Wood 1.3" and got stuck on the Wood behind. The 124 grain TC penetrated totalling 2.1" of Wood and continued ist path with audible force (both shot from about 10 meters distance). The Wadcutter made a way bigger entrance and Exit hole but my worry is it's lack of Penetration. Shot from 30 meters to an Eucalyptus tree the Wadcutter hit were I aimed and mushroomed to about .67 inches (originally they supposed to be .358 inches in Diameter).

Data comparison Synthesis:

The 148 grain WC have less Penetration than the 124 grain Truncated Cone bullets

The Wad Cutter Elmer Keith style lube grooves bullet have LESS Penetration than the Truncated Cone Tumble Lube lead bullets.

What causes the lesser Penetration?

Is it the weight difference or is it the lube groove design difference? Or is it the greater bearing Surface of the Wadcutter design vs the Truncated Cone design?
 
Different parts of a wood tree are going to have different densities and other characteristics. You need to repeat the test with a medium that is as consistent as possible to get valid results.

If the wadcutter expanded and TC 124 didn't that could explain a large difference in penetration.
 
Let's see if I got this right,

A FULL WADCUTTER (total flat point) doesn't penetrate a tree as much as a pointed bullet weighing 5/6 as much. Given the same powder charge, the lighter bullet will be moving faster, and the truncated cone shape is much more pointed than the wadcutter. How is it surprising that it penetrates better??

Which is easier to poke through a piece of cardboard, an UNSHARPENED pencil (flat point) or one sharpened to a point??

Yes, its really that simple.

The lube grooves, shape, style, size, & number have NOTHING to do with a bullet's penetration. They matter in how the bullet "fits" the barrel, and might have an effect on accuracy, but they have no effect on what happens when the bullet hits the target.

Even if both bullets were the same alloy, and fired at the same speed, the more pointed one will most likely penetrate deeper.
 
Lee staes on their webpage micro groove lube bullets move faster due to less friction than traditional style lube grooves.
Would be interesting to see difference between Lee 148 WC traditional VS Lee 148 Tumble lube WC design.
 
The difference would be small. Friction in a barrel is on the order of maybe 5% of what the powder gas is pushing against; reaction force due to the bullet's inertia provides most of the resistance, and that just depends on its sectional density (mass per unit area). If you could reduce friction 20% with the TL grooves, from 5% to 4%, then you might see 1% velocity difference at the muzzle. That's within typical shot-to-shot velocity variation in handguns and is probably less than the variation in wood grain density.

Bullets lose velocity in a target medium due to drag. If your light bullet and your heavier bullet have the same energy, you will expect the more blunt design to stop sooner because it is presenting a wider flat area to the medium that compresses and cuts the wood grain, where the truncated cone is doing that only at its flat tip, and is prying the grains apart with its conical section like driving a wedge into the wood.

On Lee's web site, the 124 grain TC has a ballistic coefficient of 0.127, while the wadcutter's ballistic coefficient is only 0.072. This reflects the shape difference. When these two bullets have the same energy, you can expect penetration of the TC to be 0.127/0.072 = 1.76 times greater due to the shape drag difference the BC reveals. You got penetration of 1.3" from the WC, multiplied by 1.76 = 2.29, so we expect 2.3" of penetration from the TC if the energy of the two bullets is the same at impact. Probably, however, it is not quite the same. The lighter bullet will burn powder a little less efficiently and you may not have used the same amount of powder in both. Also, the wood doesn't behave quite like a fluid, even at bullet velocity, and that likely accounts for part of the difference between prediction and reality. Also, you said the WC expanded some. All these have to be taken into account because they modify the drag. But the ratio of the BC's is a good starting point.
 
Thanks Unclenick for responding.

That's what I mean an cientific Approach to my question.

According to Lee Webpage <<the reduced friction of the Micro bands allow a higher velocity...>>. That sounds as the velocity is considerably higher. Therefore I am inclined to order the Micro Groove 148 grain WC as well to know for sure. I will measure it with the Chrono once it arrives and post it here or start a new Thread posting velocities of different reloads.
So the weight of the bullet makes it slower.

Dr Fackler/Grabisnki on Youtube as well Col. E Harrisson (I believe) in one of his articles appraise the Wadcutter as the best defense bullet. Supposedly an Semiwadcutter is not much better than an round nose. According to those guys the handgun bullets works only by destroying as much tissue, wessels and hit vital structure (all These they call PRIMARY CAVITY) and not so much by hydraulic shock (SECONDARY CAVITY). But they have to get propper Penetration to do this. So the hole the bullet makes has to be as big as possible in order to make possible as much blood loss as possible.
Similar experience I made at Shooting full grown cats (male figthing cats which scare, bite away younger cats): I shoot them but there is no sign whatsoever if I hit them. Normally they run away in an normal manner and I believe they are just scared. Later I find them laying dead a few meters from were the Shooting happened. Bullets were all Winchester FMJ at that time (did not have any mold yet). One cat I hit at the rear end (at the Shooting I thought I missed him completely) and 3 weeks later he showed up very peacefully and meager drawing one of his legs (no wound to see whatsoever). Now a few months later) he is very peacefully but still very thin and depends on cat Food only but the leg sometimes is better sometimes is worsening. It's a nice cat now. Talking about the 7 lives of a cat. Similar Story tell those Doctors from Shooting at criminals in his Videos.

I would really know what REALLY is the Ballistic Coefficient.
Basically the Wood Penetration confirms exactly the Ballistic Coefficient. The TC penetrated about 2.2" of the Wood and the WC penetrated 1.3" of Wood. So the TC had almost exactly 1.76 times more Penetration than the Wadcutter.
I noticed seating the Wadcutter flush with the case there are signs of unburnt powder. So I seated the Wadcutter to 0.098" deeper than flush. As well the TC was seated to 0.100" depth from flush with both Hornady scale measured 3.0 grains od powder (I allways measure each round the powder with the scale individually). Now to get more Penetration out of the Wadcutter I put 3.2 grains from the weaker powder which is about the equivalent of 3.1 grains of the quicker powder.

Thanks again for the usefull info.
 
Dr Fackler/Grabisnki on Youtube as well Col. E Harrisson (I believe) in one of his articles appraise the Wadcutter as the best defense bullet. Supposedly an Semiwadcutter is not much better than an round nose.

That's their opinion, many people disagree, for many reasons. The key is understanding just what is being talked about, because both sides often leave out important information that helps in our understanding of the point.

There is a difference between the "best" bullet and the "best" AMMO.
(we'll stick with .38 Special as the example, for ease of discussion)

Looking at just mathematics, the wadcutter is the most effective bullet for energy transmission. The flat, full bore diameter bullet nose is what does this.

However, .38 Spl wadcutter AMMO is almost never the best round for self defense against HUMANS. .38 Wadcutter ammo is a target load, at low velocity, using a pure lead, or very soft alloy slug. It is made to be accurate, NOT powerful.

I would disagree on the point about semi wadcutters being "little better" than a round nose bullet. Mathematically, on paper that may be true, by the numbers, but in the Real World, there is an observed effect, semi wadcutters seem to be more effective transmitting shock than round/pointed nose bullets.

Simply put, pointed bullets (including RN) "slip" though tissue (like an icepick), while flat points, (including semi wadcutter and full wadcutter) "punch" or "tear" their way through, usually resulting in what appears to be greater shock to the target (human or animal) than RN slugs.

Of course, this only applies at common pistol velocities, and doesn't take bullet expansion into account. Expansion is an entirely different, additional set of factors.

Shooting small game & pests (animals up to about 40lbs) does not give a valid example of what the same load will do in larger animals (or humans). With handgun level loads, small animals do not have the body mass or bone density tto allow hollowpoints or even soft points to expand. SO, every bullet acts like an FMJ, and only a flat point (full or semi wadcutter) tears a full caliber hole.

Unless the bullet directly strikes a vital spot, it simply pokes a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
 
Flat nose bullets have enjoyed increased popularity over the years. I'm sure Elmer Keith, who designed the SWC, would disagree about it being no better than a round nose, but his SWC designs had a pretty wide meplat (the flat area of the tip), and I don't think he would disagree about the killing power of the still wider LBT designs popular today.

The problem with expanding bullets has always been that compromise or trade-off between penetration and destructiveness. Rifles have enough power so that the expanded cavity is partly permanent, so they are usually pretty effective in rifles as long as you stay within the bullet's terminal velocity design range. But many folks swear by a blunt solid as it also widens the wound channel but has a greater chance of extending that channel clear through and creating an exit wound. At handgun power levels the problem is greater because there is less energy to spare and the temporary cavity gets a lot of that energy while only sometimes shocking the target with it. Other times the handgun's temporary cavity doesn't seem to do more than make the target mad. That response is unpredictable, but is the reason more emphasis is put on penetration in newer designs. But in all cases the temporary cavity's energy drain does reduce maximum penetration. So the blunt solids have a good following in the midst of that whole debate.

It isn't weight, but sectional density that determines acceleration by pressure. Sectional density (SD) is how much mass you have for each unit of cross-sectional area. In a gun, that cross-sectional area is the area of the bore opening. And since the force provided by a given pressure also increases with area, a constant sectional density means each unit of force is acting on the same amount of mass. That's keeps acceleration constant. If you double the cross-sectional area of the bullet and also double the weight, the same pressure will make double the total force and accelerate the doubled weight at the same rate as the single weight was with the same pressure on the original amount of area. But if you double the weight by making the bullet longer and leave the cross section area and pressure the same, then acceleration will be cut in half because each unit of force now has twice as much mass to accelerate.

A ballistic coefficient is a number that tells you how gradually your bullet is slowed by drag. There is more than one kind of BC, but for all kinds, the higher the ballistic coefficient is, the more gradually the bullet slows down as it flies through air (or goes through other media, as you discovered). You can get the physics or aerodynamic version of a ballistic coefficient by dividing the sectional density of the bullet by its drag. The drag is normally calculated from the factors that cause drag in all things moving through a fluid multiplied, then is adjusted by multiplying by a drag coefficient that was measured for the actual bullet shape. Basically, the higher the sectional density (SD) of the bullet, the more force it takes to slow it down at a given rate. As a result, when you calculated BC, SD is in the numerator while drag is in the denominator. For a given bullet nose and tail form, higher SD means higher BC, and higher drag means lower BC.

In ballistics only, there are two things to be aware of: One is that the ballistic SD of a bullet is not it's physical SD, as it was in the aerodynamic calculation. In ballistics it is a convention to use the area of a square the diameter of the bullet rather than the actual circular cross-sectional area. Because bullets are normally circular in cross-section, the error is always of the same proportion and the comparative SD and SD-related behavior of any two bullets remains accurate. Using the area of the square, D², simplifies the calculation by eliminating the need to calculate ϖr². This shortcut was devised because field artillery officers were asked to make the calculation in combat real time (this was before computers) and any step that saved time might be critical for them. That is now an obsolete concern, but the habit of using the shortened calculation remains.

Second, because of that proportional SD being accurate only in making comparisons, the BC used in ballistics is based on comparing your bullet to a reference projectile for which the SD is calculated the same way and for which velocity loss tables have been compiled from actual firing measurements. This also saves having to make very complicated fluid dynamics calculations near the speed of sound, where drag jumps up quickly due to the start of shock wave formation. Instead, you just divide your bullet's ballistic SD by the reference projectile's SD to get the BC, which is the comparative rate at which your bullet will be slowing down when it is flying at the same speed in the same atmospheric conditions. The reference projectile tables are adjusted so the reference projectile has a ballistic SD of 1.0 and a BC of 1.0. This further simplifies the calculation because then your BC is just equal to your SD, provided your bullet has the same shape as the reference projectile.

Well, usually your bullet is not the same shape as the reference projectile. As a result, a shape difference correction factor has to be added in. It is called the form factor or form coefficient, i. So BC then is:

Your bullet ballistic SD / (i × Reference projectile ballistic SD)

Since the reference projectile SD is always 1.0, this simplifies to:

BC = Your bullet ballistic SD / i.

Now there is one last complication. There is more than one shape of reference projectile, and the closer the shape of your bullet is to the shape of the reference projectile, the closer i is to 1.0 and the closer your BC is to being simply equal to your ballistic SD. The most common reference is the Type 1 reference used in firings to create the Gavre Commission table of 1917. Because it was tabulated by the Gavre Commission, it is called the G1 reference projectile. The original projectile used in these firings and before adjusting the tables for an SD of 1.0 and a BC of 1.0, it was an artillery shell that looked like this:

Type%201%20projectile_zpsvl2jortm.jpg


You may well ask how closely this projectile resemble the bullet you actually have. For some pistol bullets, it is too pointy. For most rifle bullets that are not round nose, it is too blunt. It is about right for a lot of cast rifle bullets. They are often longer, but added length alone doesn't have a big effect on drag.

For those bullet for which the shape is a poor match, there are other projectiles to reference to. To honor the Gavre Commission, even though most of these shapes were come up with by the U.S. Army Ballistics Research Lab, the prefix letter G still attaches to the rifle bullet shapes. These other reference projectiles range from a round ball and a straight cylinder (like your wadcutter) to very sleek long shapes that match a VLD bullet. Obviously a long sleek projectile will slow down more gradually, so if you use that shape as your reference, the BC's you get from it will be smaller numbers because the i will be larger. For example, a pointed rifle bullet might have a G1 BC of 0.45, but the same bullet as compared to the long, pointed G7 reference projectile will slow down comparatively faster and will thus have a G7 BC of just 0.222.

So, why do we care about BC's? Well an obvious reason is a larger BC means a bullet will fly further and arrive at a given distance faster. That means you have to lead a moving target less and wind will have less time to affect it. But the main reason most of us want these numbers is that they provide a compact piece of information that velocity and drop and windage tables may be calculated from. Ballistics software can take a BC and generate these tables for you. It turns out that the closer the shape of the reference projectile is to the shape of your bullet, the more accurate those tables are, though the difference is usually small enough that it matters only to long range riflemen.
 
Dear Unclenick,

Thanks for the very clear Information. I guess the first time I really understand the concept of SD, BC and G1-G7 functions.

Basically for example, when we consider a lead NEEDLE and a lead WASHER for SD if both have 148 grain of weight. The needle (very Long but thin object) will be LESS accelerated with the same pressure and the washer (very short but large Diameter) will be MORE accelerated with the same pressure. That is because the Needle has an very small area the powder can actuate on and the washer has a very large area to actuate upon to get acceleration.
Are These extreme examples correct?

I guess I will opt for the Wadcutter as my bullet as I anyways seat them deeper than flush. I will load them just hotter to get more Penetration. I shoot These obviously in an 357 Magnum SAA Revolver (Made by Pietta/Heritage).
I noticed they (148 grain WC .358") shoot high with this gun. The lighter 124 grain TC .356" bullets shoot low.

I find it interesting that the Ballistic Coefficient coincides with my empirical Penetration test.
I believe the Wadcutter is a very good self defense round if it gets adecuate Penetration (should be loaded hotter).
I shot from 45 meters today at 2 Woods which the WC made an clean hole trough the first and again bounced off from the second one (first Wood was about 0.75"); and the Exit hole was very big. The bin I posted in an different Thread as well I shot with the WC from about 55 meters and it went clean through and the Exit hole was again way bigger than the 2 ones from the 124 grain TC ones. It seems to have keyholed at the Exit hole. I mention this because from 20 meters an OO Buck round makes it barely through such an 200 Liter Barrel. An #4 Buckshot does not even make it allways through the second wall of the Barrel (no Exit hole).
To compare: If an OO Buckshot is good enough than These Wadcutters are anyways way better (do the Job as well and from an longer distance). I would not be confident to hit anything with an OO Buckshot at 50 meters (from 20 meters OO Buck gets a fairly wide spread already and only with luck you hit an 200 Liter barrel size target; modified choke with an Mossberg 500 12 ga).
I once shot an fierce dog from about 12 meters with OO Buck (remington 887 mod choke) and the animal as workers told me later had got one single hit and died in the Woods from it. I did not think I hit him since I found 3 shot in the wall of the house, 3 hits got to the house pillar and some 2 got at the floor (about a spread of 3 meters at 12 meters distance). That imparts no confidence of hit assurance for me (12 ga OO Buckshot) so maybe These Wadcutters are a better Option.

If somebody has more empirical experiences with lead Wadcutters as hunting or defense bullets I would appreciate to hear from you!
 
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Some friends and I burned through several thousand 148gr .38 wadcutters in the early 80s, plinking, shooting small varmints (prarie dogs, "sage rats" etc) we loaded at velocities from 600fps up to as close as we could get to 1,000fps (and we never got close ;)), loaded them flush, and above flush, right side up and upside down (Hollow base wadcutters upside down are an awesome looking hollow point..;)

Never loaded any below flush (and I don't know why one would....)

Learned a few things during the process.

First off, we were not casting our own. We were buying commercially cast or swaged bullets, and because of that, all of them were very soft. Not at all suitable for loads pushing over 800fps-ish. Simply put, at higher speeds, the very soft lead slugs are being overdriven. Accuracy goes in the pot and they lead like crazy, and also SPIT lead from the cylinder gap.

Now, you are casting your own, so you have an advantage, you can tailor the alloy hardness to allow for what ever velocity range you are seeking. A full wadcutter, cast hard enough to take being driven fast is a very effective bullet, (non expanding).

Basically for example, when we consider a lead NEEDLE and a lead WASHER for SD if both have 148 grain of weight. The needle (very Long but thin object) will be LESS accelerated with the same pressure and the washer (very short but large Diameter) will be MORE accelerated with the same pressure. That is because the Needle has an very small area the powder can actuate on and the washer has a very large area to actuate upon to get acceleration.
Are These extreme examples correct?

Your understand of the principle is sound enough, but that isn't quite what happens in firearms because of other factors. Your examples are close enough though.

The "needle's" base must fill the bore, just as the "washer" does. Weight being the same, and powder charge the same, in your example, then the difference is that the smaller base needle has a higher pressure on the base, per square inch.

The washer with its bigger base is still being pushed by the same amount of pressure in total, but the amount per square inch is a lower number.

Yes, higher pressure pushes harder. Think of a garden hose with an adjustable nozzle. The pressure in the hose is contstant, but when you reduce the area over which the pressure works, (crank the nozzle closed) the stream has a higher velocity, open it up and the water just pours out, higher volume, but lower velocity.

Now, when you factor in things like different case sizes, bore size, expansion ratio, and some other factors things get more complex, but the basics stay the same.
 
TGOSA;

I don't have much to add, Unclenick having provided his excellent information, as usual.

However, a couple of things come mind:

If a bullet hits higher than the sights, it's because it's going slower than the sights were regulated. The bullet is spending more time in the barrel, exiting as recoil pushed the bore axis higher than designed.

If a bullet hits lower than the sights, it's travelling faster than the sights are regulated.

This makes sense from what you described. The faster 124 gr bullets are exiting "too early" and the slower 148 gr bullets "too late". In order to regulate these loads to your fixed sights, speed up the 148 gr and slow down the 124. Since your pistol is a .357, this shouldn't be difficult to do. Speeding up the 148 wadcutters will help with penetration. The key factor is barrel time versus recoil.

A single 00 buck is not very effective, essentially being a .32 pistol bullet, only lighter. It's his 8 other friends in a full load of 00 buck that make it formidable. If your patterns are too large for your application, consider putting a tighter choke in your shotgun. Also, the ballistics of 00 buck are poor, like any other round ball. It loses energy quickly, which is why police departments have historically used it. It's not deadly a mile away.

I agree with your understanding that handgun lethality is a combination of penetration and wound channel. For non-hollowpoint applications, as in your case, a flat bullet will outperform, but only to the extent that it meets penetration requirements. Also, in the case of your 9mm, the nose on the bullet is required for proper feeding into the chamber. Your revolver obviously doesn't need a nose in order to feed.

Good luck! I enjoy reading your threads, and the responses from the true experts on this forum.
 
Thanks you all guys for contributing to this thread.

I would not be surprised if I would stick to Wadcutters only in 38 spl/357 mag revolvers.

Today one medium big calf was dieying. After being dead I thought I would try one of the 3.0 grain loaded Wadcutters on it to verify penetration on meet. From about 6 meters I shot it into the belly (rib area). The Wadcutter hit an rib on the entrance wound and exited without any problem at the other side of the rib area. I saw it continueing its path with force but could not retrieve the proyectile. Blood was pouring in a stream from the exit wound (before I lifted up the animal it had laying dead on that side for a couple of minutes). The exit hole was bigger than the full diameter nicely round cut entrance wound. As I saw the fluid streaming out of the exit hole I realised the importance of blood loss in order best is big entrance and exit hole for primary cavity (better is there is an exit hole as well so from 2 holes poures the liquid out).

I believe this proyectile did not deform at all. The proyectiles I shot before at wood all deformed and today I realised the Wadcutters had tumbled and because of hitting with its longside the second wood they did not penetrate it.
I guess I will order the Lee 148 grain Tumble Lube Wadcutter as well and load the Wadcutters with more powder.
 
One thing comes to my mind.

Why is the Wadcutter such an underperforming bullet for defense if the 45 ACP travels as slow as well?
They should be kind of similar performance just in different calibers.

Any ideas about
45 ACP versus 357 mag Wadcutter (148 grain Lee full WC)
 
Why is the Wadcutter such an underperforming bullet for defense if the 45 ACP travels as slow as well?
They should be kind of similar performance just in different calibers.

Because no matter what anyone says, size DOES matter! :D

Factory .38 SPL wadcutters (.357s are the same level loads in a .357 case, seldom seen as factory ammo, because all .357s will shoot .38 Specials) are TARGET ammo. Velocity from a 6" barrel runs in the 700fps area. Maybe a little more in some brands, a little less in others.

Shooting that ammo out of shorter barrel guns (more commonly used for self defense) means even further reduced velocity.

Standard .45ACP 230gr is 850fps from a 5" barrel.

The .45 bullet is nearly twice as heavy, has much larger frontal area, and is moving FASTER than the standard .38 Spl target loads.

SO, bigger bullet, moving faster, means more energy and a bigger hole. How is that NOT going to work better than something less in all aspects?

You have my sympathy for your situation, having to use "recovered" shotgun shell powder. That sucks. And, it means that without a chronograph to find out what your actual velocity is, we can only guess at what velocity your loads are actually doing...

The powder loaded in factory ammo may LOOK exactly like the "canister grade" powder for reloading, but it could be quite different. (different burn rate & pressure characteristics).

Do not assume that data from a powder that looks the same will BE the same.
 
About the only thing I can add is how little difference the lube apparently contributes to the effect of the bullet.
We had a basement flood where we used to live, and the store bought bullets (.45acp) had most of the lube dissolved and missing from the grooves.
With not way to deal with it, and a full weekend of matches coming up the next day, I just loaded them as is.
They worked just fine.
 
Hi again,


I made a few empirical test again although I bet on you guys are waiting for the chrono data in order to be sure.
But empirical Trial-error is my only possibility to date so I include again some photos of Penetration. These are both shot from an distance of 45 meters.


First photo is te ENTRACE on the first Wood and the second Wood I Show as well to see the Penetration. The big hole is the lead Lee 148 Wadcutter with 3.4 grain of powder. It clearly tumbled upon Impact and almost turned 70 degrees as it hit the second Wood which it did not penetrate. The bullet has an Diameter of .651" (Surface which hit the 2nd wood bout 70 degrees sideways).
The other entrance to see is from an PMC factory 9mm Luger bullet. The entrance hole is way smaller but it penetrated 3 Woods and continued it's path furtheron.

Second photo is the EXIT holes of the first Wood and you can observe the Wadcutter made an way bigger Exit hole as the 9mm Luger. The WC just ripped through as Long as it had momentum.

attachment.php

See both photos
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The lack of Penetration of the Wadcutter may be due to it being soft lead. As I stated before in soft tissue, as the dead 120 lbs calf, the Wadcutter may not deform and did an good Job as it exited the animal and continued it's path. I do not think the WC tumbled in the dead animal but went straight through.
Maybe as well the lack of Penetration of the Wadcutter is due to it Encounters an hard Surface (in hard medium it may lack Penetration but in soft tissue medium it may perform very well.

Sellier&Bellot state for their 9mm Luger FMJ an Ballistic Coefficient of 1.56 meanwhile the Lee 148 grain Wadcutter has an BC of 0.72. So the calculation would be as follows: 1.56/0.72= 2.166. So the 9mm Luger FMJ factory round will have an 2.166 times more Penetration. That means if the WC penetrates 1 Wood the 9mm Luger should penetrate just over 2 Woods. But it did 3 Woods. The additional Wood penetrated by the FMJ may due to harder bullet and maybe the factory round had more powder in it.
Once again the BC confirms empirical data and vice versa.
 

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One of the things about full wadcutter bullets is that they are LESS likely to tumble than any bullet with a "pointed" nose.

This is because they are a cylinder of lead, with the weight evenly distributed throughout the length.

Every bullet that has some kind of nose (pointed, round nose, flat point, etc) every one of them the nose section is lighter than the base, so, when they hit something, the heavier base causes them to tumble.

How much they tumble, and how far they go through the target before they tumble varies HUGELY, but everything that is not a round ball or a straight cylinder will try and tumble, under the right conditions.

There are conditions where a wadcutter will tumble, its just they are less likely to do so than pointed bullets.
 
Dear 44 amp,

Very interesting. My experience and Pictures demonstrate as well that the WC does not tumble (at least within 45 meters). But I am a Little confused.

a) Some sources say Wadcutters are MORE prone to tumble due to their cilyndrical shape.
b) Other sources say a bullet has to be NOSE HEAVY in order to NOT to tumble (Kind of 7/8 oz Lee drive key slug. The 1 oz Lee drive key slug supposed to tumble because it has ist weight evenly distributed like an cilyndrical shape WC). The 7/8 oz Lee slug falls allways on it's nose (I have that mold).
c) Again others say an Semi Wadcutter does NOT tumble because ist nose has LESS WEIGHT and the main weight is more in the centre of the bullet (those Claim the WC is an tumbler after 50 Yards. For them the WC is the worst tumbler ever!). These People Claim, that is the reason the hollow Point is very accurate since it's nose is light and the weight is more in the centre of the bullet.

So I am a Little confused.
But yes my WC at least never tumbled at Impact of any distances. Only within the media it started to jaw. I Attribute that to it being an lead bullet. Lead will go the least resistance since it deforms easy.
I saw in other Forums an older form of early SWC called Himmelwright design.

{Edit: Unfortunately, you may not copy images from another site to this forum without permission from the source. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

My thoughts:
As I saw that (Himmelwright) design I liked it. Seems to be an fairly hefty Wadcutter with an longer round nose. The round nose is not to small nor to big. The Long small nose I guess will act as an nail for Penetration; or it breaks off after Penetration for a second wound channel. The rest of the Himmlwright Body Looks like an full Wadcutter (big hole). What seems practical to me is the small Diameter but long round nose in front of the Wadcutter. Wished Lee would make that design.
Anyone experience with These Himmelwright and comparison to Wadcutters?
 
To be clear, the tumbling I am talking about is the bullet tumbling as it travels through flesh, (or ballistic gel, or other "soft" medium).

A bullet tumbling in air (without hitting anything) at a given distance is the result of different forces.

Think of it this way, when the bullet hits, resistance "pushes back" against the nose of the bullet, while the base of the bullet is pushing forward. Anything other than perfectly centered perpendicular resistance to the bullet nose will send the nose of the bullet to one side, or the other, and the continued "push" from the base of the bullet goes off to the other side, resulting in the bullet swapping ends (tumbling) over and over as it travels forward.

A wadcutter WILL tumble, but I think it has less tendency to tumble than a pointed bullet.

(and we are talking about a non expanding bullet that does not strike a hard object)

And specifically the solid base .38 wadcutter.

Going back to your washer and needle, as they fly along, push the needle tip to the side, just a little, where does the back end want to go? The more weight (mass) in the back end the stronger the effect

With the washer, the same effect is less, there is less, or no distance (length of the bullet) between the tip and heavy base to amplify the effect of tumbling.

Nose heavy slugs (bullets and shotgun slugs) resist tumbling, because they tend to follow the heavy nose wherever it goes. The tail does not wag the dog.
 
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