Lee Enfield No. 4 MK I questions

M

MillennialGunner

Inactive
Hey all,
This is my first post here and I am hoping that someone can answer some questions about my newest acquisition. I recently purchased a Lee Enfield No. 4 MK I for under 300 too say the least I was looking long and hard to make sure that I wasn't getting ready to buy a wall hanger. Everything looks to be solid but there are a few curious things about it I'm trying to find more information on. First, everything on the outside from what I've researched appears to be correct except the flip up long range sights are gone, which from what I understand is not that big of an issue. Second the peep sights are different from what my friends 1944 are. These are peep sights that can flip in between 300 and 600 meters or yards (not sure which measurement it would be but I'm assuming meters). My question is are these original? Third, on the bolt, very faintly SM MK II is etched into the bolt so am I correct in assuming that this is a MK II bolt? How common is this? Finally, I cannot find a year on this rifle and I have tried to research it on my own and I've only been able to track down the factory and location it was made. I'm having trouble posting pictures, if you're able to help please let me know and I will email them or send some other way. I'm a beginner when it comes to milsurp rifles so any information you can provide will help. The more information about the rifle the better. Thanks everyone!​





"Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory! " - General George S. Patton​
 
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There were 3 basic variations of the rear sight on No 4 rifles.

Mk1 was machined, had 300 yard battle sight, and a micrometer type thumb screw on top to adjust elevation from 200 to 1500 yards.

Mk2 is what you have, a simple 2 position battle sight for 300 and 600 yards,

Mk3 and Mk4, which were similar, stamped construction, with 300 yard battle sight, and a slider to adjust elevation from 200 to 1300 yards.

There is a diagram from one of the Enfield manuals here: http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=174-Lee-Enfield-No.4-Rifles-(Rear-Sight-Variations)

Sorry, don't know the answer on the bolt.
 
Thank you! Like I said any little bit of info helps and this makes me feel better about that part of the rifle. I was getting worried that someone might have just slapped something on it so at least I know it was meant for an Enfield.
 
any no. 4 mk1 in full military dress in good condition is worth 300.00. IMHO. in the hayday of inexpensive milsurps in my youth(1959-1960). they were stacked like cord wood at the local army-navy surpluse store, your choice 14.99. the problem was me getting 14.99, as their was five children in our familey my dad was not much help (a loaf of bread was .15 then). eastbank
 
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Look for an FTR etching on the receiver. If that is there than the rifle went through a rebuild. Also, your rifle has probably gone through several hands since it was imported, someone may have taken the elevation adjustable rear sight off before sale.
 
I haven't found an "FTR" on it. It has the importer "C.A.I", the serial number and things like that. On the metal band on the stock behind the trigger I see the manufacturer "ROF" then a serial number BA24884. This is the area my friends enfield is dated but mine is missing the date.
 
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FWIW, FTR stands for "Factory Thorough Repair" or complete rebuild. ROF stands for Royal Ordnance Factory - a letter indicates which one, usually ROF(F) indicates Fazakerley (the town is now a part of Liverpool).

Jim
 
Here's a general tip that applies to all the SMLE variants.

While the magazines are detachable, they should not be, and were never intended to be used like the common detachable magazines in other rifle and pistol designs.

The SMLE magazine doesn't have feed lips like "regular" box magazines. Those are part of the action. The mag has a couple of little tabs to hold in the rounds when the mag is not in the gun, which are much, much more prone to letting the rounds get loose (or misaligned) if it is handled roughly.

Mags were intended to be easily removed for cleaning (both the mag and the rifle), or repair/replacement, and not for swapping loaded mags to enhance firepower (capacity).

You CAN do it, and it does work (on the range, anyway), but it was never the intended practice.

The sight distance markings are in yards, not meters, as the rifle was made well before Great Britain adopted the metric system.

Be aware the .303 British rifles are not very "reloader friendly". Case life (number of reloads) is short, even when taking special care to prolong it. The case headspaces on the rim, so that is where close tolerances were used. The chambers of .303 Brit rifles are often described as "generous", which is polite gunney speak for "large and sloppy". Deliberately done so rounds would chamber carrying a fair amount of battlefield muck and mud.

The "generous" chamber means the case body stretches more on firing than is common in most other guns, and because of that case life is shorter than other common guns. Makes NO difference firing ammo the first time, and reloads weren't a consideration the designers bothered with.
 
MG,
The bolt should be stamped with the serial number of the rifle. Even if it went through FTR, the numbers would match (an armorer would restamp the matching number after fitting the bolt).

If your bolt has no serial number or a different number, it is a replacement bolt that was put in the rifle after the rifle left British service.
 
"...has the importer "C.A.I"..." That'll be Century International Arms. Well known for assembling Lee-Enfields out of parts bins with zero QC. Do not shoot that rifle until you have checked the headspace. Century did not do so after assembly. They bought piles of receivers years and years ago from all over the world, imported 'em and assemble rifles. Most have bad headspace.
Even when the S/N/s match you have no idea if the bolt head is original. You must check the headspace on any Lee-Enfield from anywhere.
A No-Go is enough. Mind you, if the bolt closes completely on that, try a Field. If it closes completely on a Field you need another bolt head. Sometimes, just going up one number(0 to 3. No numbers on N. 1 bolt heads) from what is on the existing one will do. Bolt heads run $20 + each.
"ROF" means Royal Ordnance Factory. On a non-Century rifle there would be a factory name, number or letter. As in ROFM or ROF(F). Maltby and Fazakerley respectively. Serial number will tell you where the receiver was made too. The '2' indicates Fazakerley. Then the letters were added when they got to 29999.
Start by rummaging around here.
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/no4s/no4-mki/
However, it appears Century removed a lot of the markings on your rifle.
Best to slug the barrel too. That'd be hammering a cast .30 calibre bullet or suitable diameter lead fishing sinker through the barrel from the chamber end with a 1/4" brass rod and a plastic mallet then measuring the diameter of the bullet/sinker. (Way easier to do than type.) Lee-Enfield barrels can vary from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" it's shot out.
Problem is that jacketed bullets in ammo and as components are .311" or .312" only. There are .313' and .314" cast bullets available from Montana.
A No. 4 Rifle is not and never has been any kind of SMLE variant. No. 1(is an SMLE) mags and No. 4 mags are not interchangeable. Difference is the number of locking lugs on the back. Two on a No. 1 mag. Both types have lips too. That'd be the bent bits on the front and rear. https://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/product.jsp?productid=78289
You have what is called the battle sights. Graduated in yards, not meters. The 1500 and 1300 yards was about volley fire, not aimed fire. Volley fire was when an entire Regm't or whatever lined up and fired at a given target at a known distance as literally an area denial thing. Dates from W.W. I. You can put on the newer sight if you really want to. Use the 300 in the mean time and after checking the headspace, just remember where the thing shoots. Windage is adjusted by moving the front sight in the opposite direction you want the group to go.
"...than about 20 different Google searches..." All about searching for the right thing. Sadly, the best sites are gone now, but this guy's writing style and info is good. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/philqgbr/enfields.html
 
So I have never checked headspace on a rifle before, never really needed to. I'm almost 100% positive the shop I bought the rifle from did a test fire since that is their normal policy on used guns, but I would like to be safe rather than sorry. I watched a YouTube video on how this is done (Everything is true on the Internet right?) and wanted some second opinions. So when checking headspace I put a gauge of some kind that is similair to a 303 British casing into the chamber and gently lower the bolt and depending on where the bolt sits depends on whether the headspace is good or bad? So do I need some kind of gauge to do this? Or can I use a regular spent 303 British casing? If I do need a gauge of some kind how much does one normally cost and where can I get one? Am I right so far on how to do this or is there another/ better way? Thank you
 
MG,
You are going to need a .74 gauge.

Here is some info on headspace from Steve Redgwell who was a military armorer and worked on LEs.

Redgwell on Headspace

"The confusion over headspace comes around with predictable frequency. Rifles are bought and sold with the new owners not knowing what's correct. Some thoughts for your consideration.

Most bolt action rifles are cock on opening. Most springs, parts, etc. compress, turn or line up at this point. Since headspacing is a shop function, the rifle is usually in pieces so, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART, armourers are following laid down disassembly procedures. It is easy to understand why a bolt would be stripped or convenient for it to be stripped. These rifles are not Lee Enfields.

Now we come to the Lee Enfield specifically, a cock on closing type. Again, headspacing is a shop function. Unless there is a problem with the bolt, it is NOT disasembled. The reason is because you cause wear and loosening of the fit and parts for no good reason. If you want to believe that you are performing a necessary function, fine. It's your rifle. Since the earliest models, the unnecessary disassembly of any part has been frowned on, mostly for the above mentioned reasons.

I didn't make this up. I was an armourer. Bolt stripping was not part of the SOP. Okay, now that we all understand that this wasn't called for at the shop, you can all discuss why you think it is necessary. You may think this mean spirited, but what you think doesn't matter. The procedures were laid down in the 40s AND NEVER CHANGED. That's because there was no need.

DO NOT MIX UP SHOP PROCEDURES FROM ONE FIREARM TYPE AND APPLY IT TO ANOTHER!

Kraut explained that by pulling the trigger you stop the spring from delivering tension (and torque) to the bolt. This was done by every armourer I worked with and thousands before me all over the world. It is a time tested method.

Finally, what you are measuring is a small space into which the rim fits. It can be in one of three conditions. Too shallow. Just right. Too deep.

Too shallow. Is only a concern upon original assembly or refitting of a barrel. So, unless you own a gunshop, a GO gauge is not necessary.

Just right is .064 to .074. This means safe to shoot.

Too deep means in excess of .074. Bad for the equipment. Not usually for the operator. Case separations with safe ammunition do not present a danger because of the lock up and vent.

The gauge thickness determines where the headspace is from the above three conditions. When squeezing the trigger, there is no mechanical load and the gauge can sit in the space, the bolt can be moved forward and observations made as to the condition.

It is not rocket science. It is however, a sensible, time tested way of quickly checking the rifle. Please let's not turn this into a university credit course. It is a basic mechanical procedure.

and,

Looking at the Oz manuals, you will note .064 GO, .067 NOGO and .074 FIELD.

The .067 NOGO gauge was intended to keep the rifles tight for competition shooting. In target shooting, tight headspace usually means better rifle performance. .067 is fine if you're punching paper. Not so good when you're maintaining an army.

It meant unnecessary down time in the shop. It meant "unserviceable" equipment waiting for repairs when it wan't necessary. It caused some confusion with less experienced armourers.

Having had a chance to talk with some Oz armourers over the years, most said that the .067 gauge was rarely used. They went right to the FIELD gauge. That makes sense.

For present civilian owners that shoot competition and reload, .067 gauges are fine. Afterall, that was the reason for their creation. If you think that you will be shooting your rifle(s) enough to warrant the purchase of gauges, then get a .067, .070 and .074. You will be able accurately determine headspace and predict case stretch that results from poor headspacing. If you hunt with one and/or don't reload, it is a waste of good money to buy one.

Now, that said, there are two types of stretch. The stretch caused by lousy headspace and the more common type which is caused by long chambers. These are long, not wide.

With any rimmed cartridge, 30/30, 45/70, 303 etc. the chamber can be long enough to drive an 18 wheeler into yet still pass the gauge test and be considered "serviceable". Long chambers demand that you allow the case to stretch initally and neck size thereafter (where the action type allows). You will get some extra life from your brass if you do this.

Tightening up the headspace will NOT solve this condition. Only turning the barrel will reduce the chamber's length."
 
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Okay a lot was just said and I don't necessarily understand 100% of what was just said, so I sincerely apologize if I cause any frustration because all of you have helped me a lot when it comes to this rifle. At this point would it be better to take this rifle to a gunsmith that I know and have them look it over to see whether everything checks out on it? I was trying to avoid doing so just out of my convenience but this guy specializes in a lot of older firearms so I am sure he would know what's good and what's not. Would this be the best route to go at this point in time? Thanks again
 
"However, it appears Century removed a lot of the markings on your rifle."

Century may or may not have refurbished that rifle, but FTR normally included removal of the original manufacturer's markings and replacement by the mark of the depot/factory which had done the FTR.

As to headspace, it is often said that since those Lee action rifles use a rimmed cartridge (.303), they cannot have a headspace problem and never could have a case blowout for lack of support. That is not true, of course. The Lee action can have excess headspace when the locking lugs or lug seats undergo compression or wear, just like any other bolt action rifle. And they can suffer catastrophic damage from excess headspace. The usual result is a bent action, a blown out or blown open magazine, and a broken or splintered stock.

It is also often stated that the .303 cartridge was intended to be supported primarily on its shoulder and the headspace gauge should be shoulder length, like a .308 Winchester gauge. That is not true; case support was always on the rim and the headspace gauges are stubs, like those for any other rimmed cartridge.

As with other rifles, the GO and NO-GO gauges were intended for use at the factory or rebuild facility. In the field (which in "ordnance talk" means anywhere except an ordnance facility, not necessarily in the trenches), the field gauge is fine and the only headspace check needed.

Jim
 
My No4 lives at my ex wife's house, it's amazing how much I've forgotten about it. What I do remember is the bolt and the gun had the same serial numbers.

The mags need a little tweaking sometimes and you need to extract with some speed. If you try to ease the cartridge out slowly, it won't eject and just flop back in the receiver.
 
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