Lee 6.5 Creedmoor die issue.

[GripRigger]

Hi guys....newbie here from Los Angeles. I have a reloading issue that is driving me crazy.

Guys, lot's of numbers here and stuff....I'm sorry, but I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out if I have a bum die. I'm getting pressure signs at powder weights I shouldn't be getting pressure signs at. I've been hand loading for a few years and never had problems like this and it has to be a headspace/sizing problem. BTW it's a Lee die, never used them before.

First, the rifle:

6.5 Creedmoor Ruger Precision Rifle.

I think my chamber is too tight. As best as I can, using a telescoping gauge and a micrometer, I got measurements ranging from .4643" to .4701"

SAAMI calls for .4714"! Whatever it is....I never got a measurement like that and at the least the chamber is .001" undersized. I'm thinking wore out reamer.

The rifle is on it's way back to the manufacturer to have them check it properly. The chamber is also not smooth...lot's of circular machining marks and I get transfers of that to my brass. Very faint but there. Again...seems to point to the reamer.

The Lee die:

I use the Hornady Lock 'N Load headspace gauge set to measure my brass with.

In order for me to get a .001" bump, I have to set the die so low that the RCBS press cam's over really hard. If I were to screw the die inwards another 1/16 of a rotation or even less....it will jam at the shell holder (#3) and the die....lock up solid.

1.I don't get this with my other calibers. No significant camming over.

2. This is the only Lee die set I have ever used. It's the Ultimate set with FL die, collet neck sizing die, seating die and collet crimp die.

3.I have checked my scales. They are good.

4.I have measured the casings at 3 positions on factory unfired, once fired unsized and once fired sized and definitely the factory brass is significantly smaller. My shoulder grows a consistent .003" on firing. Measuring at 3 points on the case....Bottom near case head, Middle and Top near shoulder the case grows.......

B .004" M .003" and T .004"

After running through the Lee FL sizer...... the bottom is sized down only by .0004" Middle by .001" and the top by .002".

In looking at that it appears that the very bottom of the case is hardly getting sized down at all. It's still .0037" over factory....almost .004"

I measured the ID of the die near the bottom..... and got .4690".


I think two things are going on. The rifle chamber is too tight and the Lee die is not sizing properly. The die is not sizing the lowest part of the casing enough, yet is still contacting the shell holder so much it almost stops the full throw of the handle.

Why is the die to shell holder contact, so hard to only get .001" bump? Why such a hard cam over? Why the die hardly sizing the base OD at all?

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Lee FL sizing die not being correct dimensionally or causing pressure issues due to not sizing properly?

Thank you. Again, sorry for the wordy first post.

 

[Longshot4]

I have never seen a rough chamber surface. So you sent the rifle in to be checked. I believe that was the best thing to do. Now you need to wait and see what comes back to you from the factory. It sounds like the finish of the chamber is not completed.

At this time I would not worry about the Die because it would be best to eliminate one issue at a time. When the rifle gets back try again with the FL die and see what you have. Remember one issue at a time.

That is my thought. What do you think?

 

[mkl]

If you are sizing cases for only one rifle, you don't want to size back to factory dimensions -- you want to size to your rifle's chamber dimensions with possibly a .001 shoulder setback. That's the reason for the many "neck sizing" dies on the market. Minimum working of the brass is a desirable thing for both brass life and accuracy.

Longshot4 gave good advice. Wait until you get your rifle back and then see if the problem still exists. If so, we can go from there with other possible solutions.

 

[GripRigger]

Good advice guys, thank you both and for replying.

Yes I'm not expecting to get back to factory dimensions and was going for a .001" shoulder bump. I'm only loading 6.5 CM for this one rifle, but I prefer to FL size every time, especially for competition shooting, to avoid the possibility of rounds that won't chamber or that are really hard to extract. I actually ran into rounds that would not chamber, a long time ago at a comp with my .308 precision rifle where I had recently started hand loading and was neck sizing only.

The idea to verify one thing at a time is something I know well and hardly ever adhere to. So thanks for grounding me a little on that. I will wait for my rifle and see what Ruger found.

Guys, yesterday I ordered a Redding Type-S three die set and Redding Competition shell holders from Midway, along with the bushings I need. I also grabbed a case length headspace gauge in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I'll follow your advice Longshot4 and if the chamber was in fact bad and they replace or repair it..... I'll load some rounds with the Lee dies again and see what I get. Then I will load using the Redding after that. If the chamber comes back with them saying it is fine as is.....I'll load right off with the Redding Type-S dies because I know the Lee dies are problematic.

Thanks again.

 

[Unclenick]

GripRigger,

If you look at the SAAMI drawings, you will see that dimensions are maximums for the cartridge and minimums for the chamber, with only unilateral tolerances (tolerances in one direction only, rather than the familiar plus and minus). This is a standard engineering practice when one dimension is considered critical while the other is flexible. For the case, "critical" is too big to chamber at all, where too small has to get pretty far outside the tolerance before it actually stops working altogether. The chamber is the other way around, with too small making it hard to chamber properly.

Armed with that information, when you look in the upper right area of the SAAMI drawing, you see the diameter tolerance is a whopping -0.008". This means that if your factory brass is in the middle of the tolerance range when new, it should be expected to expand to meet the chamber, which is minimally about 0.0011" bigger than cartridge maximum, and then spring back about 0.001" at first firing, leaving you with a case about 0.004" bigger than it was going in. So your's sound about right. Indeed, with adding that spring-back allowance of 0.001", at 0.200" forward of the case head, you should see about 0.4704" if your chamber is dead minimum. The springback is not an exact thing, and if the loads have very high pressure, it can be less, or if they are neck sized and fired at near full pressure several times without resizing the body, then they will conform to the chamber pretty snuggly and give you a pretty accurate direct reading of your chamber size.

When you resize a case, the sizing die generally narrows the sides of the case first, and this pushes the shoulder forward. So if you withdraw a case from the die just before shoulder contact is made, you will find it has grown between the head and the headspace datum diameter on the neck. The die shoulder then needs to set it back enough to remove that issue. If you are having trouble realizing that setback, you can either chuck the die in a lathe and grind a thousandth off the mouth, or you can take the decapping pin out of the die and use F. Guffey's trick of slipping a 0.001" (or whatever you prefer) automotive feeler gauge leaf under the head of the case in the shell holder. That will get its shoulder set back by the additional amount of the leaf thickness.

The reason the die resizes minimally is both to avoid over-working the brass, for better case life, and to minimize the chance of sticking a case in the die. The only part a standard die over-works is the neck, which it makes too small in order to be sure to avoid a situation where the brass manufacturer made the neck minimally thin, and being unable to get it tight enough to hold a bullet. This is why there is an expander in the die. It has to bring the inside of the neck back out to standard bullet hold diameter after first over-resizing the OD of the neck. This extra working can be avoided either by using a bushing type sizing die for which you select a bushing just narrow enough to get your neck down to the needed diameter and then don't use the expander, or you can use a Lee Collet Die to size just the neck, and a Redding body die to size just the rest of the case.

 

[AVirginian]

I also have RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor. When loading a 140 gr Sierra Match King to 2.810", which is what all the manuals say, it was jamming the bullet into the lands, checking the throat, I had to reduce the COL to about 2.770", obviously, I started with low charges and worked up. The Hornady 140 gr ELD Match bullets have a slimmer profile and can be loaded to COL of 2.825 that is ..0010 off the lands. No pressure signs on either and both extremely accurate.

 

[jdmick]

Interesting. My son has a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor with a chamber so tight it's very difficult to close the bolt even with factory ammo so he has to send that back as well.

I think you'll like the Redding S dies. He started out with FL Hornady dies that were sizing the neck down so tight the expander ball was pulling things way out of concentric. The result was groups worse than factory. The S dies fixed that.

It seems like a relatively uncommon caliber such as this maybe causes problems with the manufacturers getting their dimensions on the same page.

 

[GripRigger]

Thanks Unclenick and AVirginian.

Unclenick, with me in numbers mode and having had my micrometers, verniers, telescoping gauges etc etc out, measuring all and sundry.......that post of yours is exactly what I needed. Love the drawing too.

I believe you are absolutely right Unclenick......some material needs to come off the Lee die bottom. I love the feeler gauge idea, also very solid.

I actually ordered a set of Redding Competition shellholders.......5 that go up in .002" increments. This would achieve the same thing no? I also got the Redding Type-S three die set so I will actually have all the items you talked about and will be able to follow your advice and try a couple different ways to see what works best. Thanks man.

Unclenick......I just realized you drew that. That is so excellent!!

AVirginian....... your post was very interesting from the POV of the SMK bullet contacting the lands. Sweet group man!!!

When you say

....and can be loaded to COL of 2.825 that is ..0010 off the lands.

you obviously mean for your particular rifle, yeah? What do you think it means that the SMK in particular jams into the lands at recommended COL? Obviously a different ogive to the ELD......but do you think that Ruger did not machine a long enough leade in your particular rifle?

I had checked that with the Hornady L'NL seating depth gauge and concluded I would end up with a COL beyond magazine length before I was anywhere near touching the lands. But I'm going to have to recheck that based on what you are saying about your RPR.

I'm going to have to wait to get my rifle back though. It's killing me I can't go out to my garage and start measuring that sucker again. I'm on a roll.

Thanks again all....very informative and I love learning stuff. After 6 years of a lot of reloading I'm no rank beginner. I also know I am nowhere near an expert and so it's really nice to be able to ask questions of those who are.....and get answers and tips.

My son has a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor with a chamber so tight it's very difficult to close the bolt even with factory ammo

Wow JD.....makes you wonder about the tolerance QC at these factories.

 

[Unclenick]

GripRigger,

Glad to help sort things out.

I actually ordered a set of Redding Competition shellholders.......5 that go up in .002" increments. This would achieve the same thing no?

No. They go in the other direction. Most production chambers have headspace over minimum rather than too short. Production chambers usually aim for a middling specification on headspace precisely in order to avoid the tight chamber problems a few of you are having. In those over-minimum chambers, the Redding Competition Shell Holders are used to compensate for that extra length without having the die out of contact with the shell holder, which can introduce some variation in shoulder setback.

In the target rifle arena, specifically, because custom builders go for minimum chambers, I am inferring from the tight chamber experiences, that the factories must be trying to achieve that in production target shooting rifles. Apparently are having problems not slipping under minimum occasionally. Those tight match chambers are really only and advantage when you have to shoot commercially loaded ammunition in your matches. Some matches require that. It's unnecessary for handloads, though. A handloader simply sizes his cases to fit his oversize chamber, and the Redding shell holders are to help do that.

 

[GripRigger]

Okay great, thanks.

 

[AVirginian]

You are correct that those measurements are for my rifle only.

I used the Hornady OAL Gauge to determine the proper setting off the lands.
When I first loaded a 140 gr SMK, with a COL of 2.810", closing the bolt was hard due to the bullet being jammed into the lands. The Hornady 140 gr ELD Match bullet .0010 off the lands won't fit in the magazine so I opt for just inside the mag. They shoot quite nicely, as you saw. Factory ammo loads fine.

I feel your pain waiting for your rifle to return. Hopefully, they will make it right for you. But as UncleNick said, better a too tight chamber than one that's too loose.

I use the S dies from Redding and their Competition Shell Holders, though I prefer not to full length size unless it's absolutely necessary. I believe this will extend case life or so Redding told me. "Neck size only until closing or opening the bolt is difficult, then full length size".

Hope that helps.

Bryant

 

[AVirginian]

GripRigger, did you get your rifle back from Ruger? If so, how's the reloading going? Curious.

 

[supercub99]

I just ran across this thread and thought I'd add to it regarding the Ruger RPR as I had one and have experience in both it and hand loading.

This from a review of the RPR;

"The rifle’s barrel is cold hammer-forged 4140 chrome/moly steel with 5R Rifling. According to Gurney, 5R places a land opposite each of the barrel’s grooves, resulting in less aggressive upset and distortion of the bullet as it engages the rifling, thereby aiding in accuracy. The 5R design also features less sharp-edged lands than those present in conventional-style rifling, reducing powder fouling and jacket failures in quick-twist barrels. The company further optimized the Precision Rifle’s accuracy by utilizing the tightest possible chamber and groove tolerances—also taking extra care to ensure a centralized chamber and minimal headspace."

Knowing this, one would more than likely use a top line die with competition dies the one you would want.

Bullet seating is a little different with the R5 as they do indeed taper the lands a little bit and that throws off conventional thinking when it comes to kissing them. I have looked at them with a bore scope and it's very obvious. Don't be too concerned about being a little further back from them as these new bullets do rather fine making that leap, Berger Bullets have published some thoughts on this.

The rough chamber is something that's been popping up from time to time lately in both rifles and pistols. My guess is Ruger will polish the chamber a little and bless it as good to go. I don't think your Lee dies will perform any different but your new comp's will work just fine.

Let us know.

 

[Unclenick]

All dies have a range of sizes that all work 99%+ of the time. Occasionally you run into an issue. Lee dies tend toward the slightly generous side of the range. I think that's just because it minimizes how much it works your brass. But I've never had one that didn't work fine. Despite their low cost, they are the only die maker that hones sizing dies to final size, AFAIK. That makes the very uniformly round.

If you know someone with a lathe and toolpost grinder, they can also grid a few thousandths off the mouth of the die. This will also make it size more.