Ever since <Titanic> came out, I've wondered about something. The officers were issued revolvers which they used to keep people out of the lifeboats. This made me wonder, who's responsible for the physical security of a ship under way in international waters? Are ship's officers armed? Who is impowered to enforce the law-- to the point of deadly force-- on board a ship in international waters? It is martial or civil law? Is it the law of the country of registry?
LAW ON THE HIGH SEAS
- Thread starter doctorj
- Start date
There was an article in the NY Times Sunday magazine (I saw it on someone's desk) about the problem of well-armed modern day pirates overtaking merchant vessels. They mostly target easily pawned consumer goods, in one case a large petrol tanker. Problem areas are Singapore, Malaysia, Indo-China corridor. A small private armed security industry has emerged to provide security (for a price) about sea-going vessels, as well as special national police task forces to investigate crimes.
These pirates are no joke. Unfortunatley, the economies in that part of the world are so bad that they often have an 'in', and know exactly where & when to hit.
These pirates are no joke. Unfortunatley, the economies in that part of the world are so bad that they often have an 'in', and know exactly where & when to hit.
I found a link for that article. It's a long read, but it does address your questions. It's very interseting anyway.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000820mag-pirates.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000820mag-pirates.html
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RH:
...the problem of well-armed modern day pirates overtaking merchant vessels.... [/quote]
There was a story going around a while back about a group of pirates that sought to attack what they thought was a rather large merchant vessel...as they launched their night attack, they were met with a HUGE amount of counterfire from machine guns, auto cannon, etc. Seems that in the dark, what they thought was a juicy merchant vessel turned out to be a Russian amphibious assault ship, which was rather heavily armed!
...the problem of well-armed modern day pirates overtaking merchant vessels.... [/quote]
There was a story going around a while back about a group of pirates that sought to attack what they thought was a rather large merchant vessel...as they launched their night attack, they were met with a HUGE amount of counterfire from machine guns, auto cannon, etc. Seems that in the dark, what they thought was a juicy merchant vessel turned out to be a Russian amphibious assault ship, which was rather heavily armed!
Bruce in West Oz
New member
The seas to the north of Australia are "happy hunting grounds" for many pirates. Private boats coming to Australia have been raked with gunfire, boarded and ransacked.
Boatowners, understandably, want to arm themselves, preferably with something a bit heavier than a slingshot.
The media played this up big-time about 12 months ago.
The result? Authorities search private boats entering or leaving Australia. Any guns are impounded. They are destroyed unless our convoluted gun licensing requirements can be met.
Result? An increase in gun smuggling/black market sales and/or an increase in the number of totally defenceless boats putting to sea.
Their argument is you can neither leave nor enter Australia without first going through Aust. territorial waters -- ergo, you MUST comply with our laws.
Load of hot cocky cack if you ask me.
B
Boatowners, understandably, want to arm themselves, preferably with something a bit heavier than a slingshot.
The media played this up big-time about 12 months ago.
The result? Authorities search private boats entering or leaving Australia. Any guns are impounded. They are destroyed unless our convoluted gun licensing requirements can be met.
Result? An increase in gun smuggling/black market sales and/or an increase in the number of totally defenceless boats putting to sea.
Their argument is you can neither leave nor enter Australia without first going through Aust. territorial waters -- ergo, you MUST comply with our laws.
Load of hot cocky cack if you ask me.
B
Oleg,
I'll bet that the 'Q-ships' reference floats right over most people's heads. (Pun intended) Not mine!
<Side story>
I used to have Q SHIP as a license plate on my old land yacht. Back in the early 80s I had a 73 Buick Electra. Under the hood was a warmed-over 455 engine. That old tank surprised quite a few of the 'decal racer' cars of the late 70s/early 80s. (Remember the later Z-28s and Trans Ams?)
Some kids never grow up!
------------------
Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
I'll bet that the 'Q-ships' reference floats right over most people's heads. (Pun intended) Not mine!
<Side story>
I used to have Q SHIP as a license plate on my old land yacht. Back in the early 80s I had a 73 Buick Electra. Under the hood was a warmed-over 455 engine. That old tank surprised quite a few of the 'decal racer' cars of the late 70s/early 80s. (Remember the later Z-28s and Trans Ams?)
Some kids never grow up!
------------------
Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
DerGlockenpooper
New member
Well, tell us about Q Ships. I need something else to think about right now, rather than Gore for Prez and Di-Fi for senator.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cougar:
Under the hood was a warmed-over 455 engine. That old tank surprised quite a few of the 'decal racer' cars of the late 70s/early 80s. (Remember the later Z-28s and Trans Ams?)
[/quote]
Ever read "Three Comrades" by Remarque? (Ignore the poor English translation) Has a great chapter on outfitting a race car witha ratty street body just to bug people.
Under the hood was a warmed-over 455 engine. That old tank surprised quite a few of the 'decal racer' cars of the late 70s/early 80s. (Remember the later Z-28s and Trans Ams?)
[/quote]
Ever read "Three Comrades" by Remarque? (Ignore the poor English translation) Has a great chapter on outfitting a race car witha ratty street body just to bug people.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Soldier of Fortune magazine had a series of articles about piracy. Good read.
Q-Ships? Well, I used to have fun putting 327s in Austin-Healeys. 2,350 pounds, 340 hp.
Art
Q-Ships? Well, I used to have fun putting 327s in Austin-Healeys. 2,350 pounds, 340 hp.
Art
Ray VonAsch
New member
Art, my sons & I are having a blast building a Miata with a 302 Ford conversion. I'll let you know this spring how we make out. A very tight squeeze and some major frame/mount mods, but we'll get it. Ray
justice4all
New member
Technically, a ship in international waters under attack by pirates can send out a plea to any nearby warships, and any state's naval forces are permitted to respond to that plea, and enforce international law in international waters. The problem is, around Indonesia, most piracy is taking place within the territorial waters of that archipelago nation, and Indonesia simply cannot control the sea it technically controls. Other state's ships cannot enter Indonesia's waters, for this would be seen as a violation of their sovereignty, or even an act of war.
The problem with ships crews arming themselves would seem to be that some country's customs would have a big problem with merchant vessels pulling into their ports armed with the kinds of weaponry that would be needed to fend off an attack by modern pirates.
The problem with ships crews arming themselves would seem to be that some country's customs would have a big problem with merchant vessels pulling into their ports armed with the kinds of weaponry that would be needed to fend off an attack by modern pirates.
Payette Jack
New member
Years and years ago in my Navy days we were briefed by an IS (Intelligence Specialist) on piracy in the South China Sea. Seems many of the "pirates" actually belong to the Red Chinese army.
To answer your question, most ships have some form of Master at Arms aboard though I'm not sure how often they are armed.
To answer your question, most ships have some form of Master at Arms aboard though I'm not sure how often they are armed.
For those who don't know.
Q ships were a nifty little idea in WWI and WWII You take a merchant ship and start cautting. You put hiden panels and false sides in places. Behind these panels and such were a number of small to medium sized guns. I think tey maxed out around 5 inch but don't quote me on that. So here they are looking just like a normal mercant ship. When a Sub surfaced to board them they ran up the white flag and sent out a decoy crew in life boats to look like they were going to abandon ****. As soon as the Sub was in range they dropped the coverings and opened fire.
The History Channel showed where Q ships even engaged and won against some Surface warships. They were no match got a cruiser or Battleship but could do a number on a destroyer or other escort calss ship. THey had almost no armor but an extreme number of guns for their size.
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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
Q ships were a nifty little idea in WWI and WWII You take a merchant ship and start cautting. You put hiden panels and false sides in places. Behind these panels and such were a number of small to medium sized guns. I think tey maxed out around 5 inch but don't quote me on that. So here they are looking just like a normal mercant ship. When a Sub surfaced to board them they ran up the white flag and sent out a decoy crew in life boats to look like they were going to abandon ****. As soon as the Sub was in range they dropped the coverings and opened fire.
The History Channel showed where Q ships even engaged and won against some Surface warships. They were no match got a cruiser or Battleship but could do a number on a destroyer or other escort calss ship. THey had almost no armor but an extreme number of guns for their size.
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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."