LATimes' Stein: I Don't Support The Troops!

T

TheBluesMan

Moderator Emeritus
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...,4137172.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
Warriors and wusses
by Joel Stein

I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.
Click to expand...

Very politically incorrect of him to feel this way and even moreso to admit it. I admire him for putting this in print even though I disagree vehemently with almost everything he says and believe that he is an idiot for holding many of the views he expresses.

He gives short shrift to the ways that people really support the troops, by highlighting trivialities (trinkets, bumper stickers, etc.). He disrespects our military personnel's collective judgment by saying that they were tricked into joining. He seems like the typical America hater. :mad:
 
I have to agree. This guy is obviously one of those bottomfeeder types that make me so ill. Makes me angry....and the lines between free speech really blurry....but freedom is freedom......
 
The most disturbing thing is the notion that soldiers should be allowed "moral choice" in foreign policy, above and beyond the choice that all voting citizens have.

He would feel differently if members of the armed services made a "moral choice" to declare martial law. I wonder if anyone has pointed that out to him.



Otherwise, I see where he's coming from: If you don't like the war, spending time "supporting the troops" seems a hair counterproductive from a personal goal of stopping the war itself.
 
I think he's got a point. Many people do take the easy way and say "I don't support the war but I support our troops" and then stick those yellow magnets on the back of their H2 or Escalade. Supporting the troops by actually sending them gear or donating money is perfectly fine but doing nothing buy saying it and buying those trinkets is essentially pointless.

I don't think that anyone in the military was "tricked" into anything, though. It's silly to think that anyone enlisting these days believes that America's military is only used for defense of our own nation. If anyone signs up without the knowledge that they'll be ordered to act like the "World Police" then they really don't need to be joining in the first place.

But this guy does have a valid point. So many people who hate the war don't want to be looked at the same way the anti-Vietman folks were. They do indeed want the armed forces to feel appreciated and thus they make sure there's no misinterpretation, no room for the idea that these guys will come back from Iraq and be treated like the Vietnam vets were.

He's also right that regardless of what a man's orders are, when he pulls the trigger and kills someone in combat, he's the cause of that death. Not his commanding officer, not the joint chiefs, not the CIC in an oblong office on the other side of the world. Now while I don't think that the war crimes of Vietnam are being commited it can't be denied that innocent civilians have been killed at the hands of soliders, airmen, sailors, and/or Marines. Those guys and gals are indeed ultimately responsible for their own actions, intentional (unlikely) or not.

I don't think he sounds like an America haters, just a guy that doesn't agree with the war. :confused:
 
I don't support the "war" (whatever that means...no war has been declared, no country has been designated as the enemy...it's just been called "the war on terror" which is as vague as "the war on drugs" or the "war on aids" or "the war on hate" :rolleyes: ) I don't support the unPATRIOT act, neoconservatives or liberals. I don't support what the men overseas are having to do, but I support them and pray for their safety and speedy return to their home soil to defend OUR country. In that sense, I support the troops.
 
reply to bluesman

I play the blues too, but the commander in chief is ultimately responsible for the troops as they are commanded to do things. If he brought us into a war for false reasons then he needs to pay the price. You have to look at who's to gain from this mess, and it sure ain't the under equipped soldiers that are putting their lives on the line. With jobs dwindling here in America, they join to put groceries on their families table, so Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and all their "advisor's' need to be held accountable as we are every time we have to prove who we are to get around these days. It's not about left or right, liberal or conservative, it's about right or wrong, and people are trying to redefine that every day now, so we hold to the goodness of our fore fathers, that system seemed to have worked better than what the admin is trying to force down us now. Let's all pray for our troops and put things back right in our govt before it's all gone. We the people can do that and are every day.
 
You may as well string me up, too, if you can catch me.

My words will surely come out differently than the writer's, however. I don't support the war and I don't support the troops. That is, in any way that I am aware of. I mean, have my taxes gone up? Have I contributed to the latest bond drive? Has anyone asked me to do anything concrete in any way that supports the war or the army? If you have, tell me how.

All those people that have stickers on their car and flags on their front porch, well, to me that's just what I call flag waving.

Oh, by the way, my son is there now.
 
He's an idiot and a slimeball, and is no patriot.

But he has every right to say what he has said. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press.

And I have every right to call him and idiot and a slimeball, and to point out that he is no patriot (freedom of speech and the press works both ways) -- assuming that I may be granted the use of this bandwidth from the moderators of the forum -- it is their bandwidth, after all. I'll not go through the effort or waste bandwidth Fisking this guy here -- something like "Fish in a Barrel" comes to mind.
 
My words will surely come out differently than the writer's, however. I don't support the war and I don't support the troops. That is, in any way that I am aware of. I mean, have my taxes gone up? Have I contributed to the latest bond drive? Has anyone asked me to do anything concrete in any way that supports the war or the army? If you have, tell me how.
Click to expand...

So what? I have a magnet on my car. I offered to give my own Interceptor OTV to a National Guardsman that went over there (he declined, said they had plenty of vests). I try to help out on ideas for care packages. I do what little I can.

Contrast that with...

Code Pinko marching around with SUCKER signs at Walter Reed hospital. Leftist scumbags hoping on NPR for more Americans in body bags so they can push their leftist agenda. Brady and Schumer and the other demretards trying to put Barrett Firearms out of business when the Army's top brass has admitted the M82A3 rifle is THE most effective new weapon in the urban fight against terrorists. The actions of the left are far past dissent and border on treason.
 
At least he's honest about his disgusting ideology. That leaves nothing for the crocodile-tears of the rest of them.
 
I think some people need to sit down and re-read this after they've successfully removed thier pink-tinted Commie Spotter goggles, coz y'know..

He's got his point about several things, but there's no way I'm going near the explosive solider thing, other than suffice to say, I can understand what he's trying to say. Perhaps you should re-read it.

As for trinkets and yellow ribbons? He's dead on, and its embarassing how proud we patriots can be of our "These Colours Don't Run!" stickers of waving American flags all produced in China under slave labour while our own Americans have to take jobs for minimum wage peddling that crap in Walmart.

-shrug-

I'm already used to being labelled a myriad of insults, so feel free to offer to string me up...Won't be the first time.
 
After re-reading the article I went from sputtering mad to having grudging respect for the author.

People who support the war should support the troops. People who support the war and don't support and appreciate the troops are simply ingrates. People who are really against the war but loudly support the troops are probably hypocrites. People, like the author, who are against the war and see no need to give lip-service to supporting the troops are at least being honest. People who are against the war and the troops are IMO despicable, but at least consistent.
 
Some of you have said that you disagree with him but you admire him for having the courage to say it.

Well, I don't admire him at all.

I heard him interviewed on talk radio (I think it was Hugh Hewitt, but I'm not sure) about three hours ago and he knew nothing about the US military, about the troops, about what they earned, about what they did or why they did it.

The interviewer made a monkey out of Stein by asking simple questions that you might expect a columnist who writes about the war and the troops to be able to answer.

He had no family members or friends in the military.

When asked if he knew ANYONE at all serving, he said he knew someone who quit his job at the Times to sign up. But when asked, he didn't know his name.


What he did know, however, is how to bandy words like AMERICAN IMPERIALISM and CAPITALISM and to discuss the morality of serving in a military he knew absolutely NOTHING about.

What he did know was his left-wing take on the war and although he backed away from saying it, you could tell that he looked down his nose at "violence".

The only good deployment of US troops he would own to was Kosovo. Isn't that we we defended Muslims against those who tried to get them out of their lives?

It's easy to ridicule those sporting "I support the troops" magnets if you have a mind to.


This Stein guy revealed himself as a typical left-wing liberal. His column was written from his prejudices; he had made not the slightest effort to research his topic. It made me sick to listen to him.



matis
 
I don't support the war in Iraq either. We've sent our troops out on an unecessary fool's errand to tilt at windmills that has nothing to do with national security or the WoT.
However, placing the responsibility on the "trigger pullers" is illogical at best. Yes we have a volunteer military, but once you volunteer, un-volunteering before your contract is up has negative life-altering consequences.

But blaming the president is a little too easy.
Click to expand...

Why? Isn't he the idiot that put us there in the first place? American military forces don't act without authorization from the president.
 
Redneck liberal here again.

There are, you know, lots of people who hate America--and live here, too. There is a joke that after they achieve their goal of getting the United States out of South America, the goal will be to get it out of North America. I don't really understand what that means but it is funny.

It bother me a little when I realize how few people I know have actually ever served in the military and that includes the people I know who work at gun shops. People in the gun shops around here know me better than other people, it seems. Anyhow, it also bothers me that almost no one in Congress, all five hundred and some of them, has any relative in the service. However, the United States has not been a particularly militaristic country in its history, though we have taken an especially right wing attitude to citizenship since around 1900, for some reason or other. Be that as it may, nothing seems to dampen the enthusiasm for immigration to this country. We may not be so bad after all.

I did serve in the army myself and I'm proud to be an American, even if it wasn't an achievement, but sometimes I am a little embarassed about the current administration's take on truth, justice and the American Way. Or was I misled when I was little?
 
Follow-up Article

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060125/3/2emvs.html
L.A. Times writer defends incendiary Iraq column
Wednesday January 25, 9:32 AM

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Los Angeles Times columnist who infuriated conservatives by writing that he does not support American troops fighting in Iraq -- and calling those who do "wusses" -- stood by the article on Tuesday.
Joel Stein said he has been "bombarded" by hate mail over the incendiary article -- which was headlined "Warriors and Wusses" and held that U.S. soldiers in Iraq were "ignoring their morality" -- but does not regret writing it and stands by the premise.

"I don't support what they are doing, and I don't the see point of putting a big yellow magnet on your car if you don't," Stein told Reuters in an interview. "I don't think (soldiers) are necessarily bad people. I do plenty of things that are wrong too. But I don't agree with what they are doing so I don't see the logic of supporting it."

The article, which ran on the Times opinion page on Tuesday, was quickly linked on conservative sites across the Internet, where readers poured scorn on Stein, on the newspaper and on liberals in general.

"If I ever run into the a**hole, I'm going to knock his frickin' block off," one man wrote on the Little Green Footballs Web site, one of nearly 500 people who had commented on the article by mid-afternoon.

Conservative columnist Michelle Malkin quickly nominated Stein as "one of the most loathsome people in America." The Irish Pennants site slammed him as "slime" but gave credit for honesty, adding: "At least he is straightforward slime."

A Times spokesman said he could not immediately determine how many complaints the newspaper had received or if any readers had canceled subscriptions.

Stein said that, despite the fact that his e-mail address was not made public by the paper, he had received some 100 "hate e-mails" by noon.

"They're telling me to leave the country, which sounded good at first because I thought they meant a vacation. But they didn't mean a vacation," he said. The columnist said he suspected the reaction was largely fueled by the Web sites, adding: "My guess is that it will die down pretty quickly."

Stein said he had long considered the issue and that whenever a politician opposes the war but supports the troops "I just always think they are covering their ass."

Asked if he had regrets, he said: "No, because I'm against the war. (I have no regrets) if this helps us get out of that war and bring our troops home safely."
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top