laser "sights"

B

beastman

New member
I am curious as to the practicality of a laser sight. Of course, they are popular in Hollywood movies, but I am curious as to their use in real life. I have heard that they allow very quick target acquisition (at close range at least) and are great for personal defense, but I have also heard that they are more decoration than anything else. Opinions?

Also, if you like the idea of laser sights, what make should I put on a Ruger .40 when I get it (still waiting for Kalifornia to say it is okay for me to have the gun, 10 day wait,etc.) Prices, etc. would be appreciated.

thanks
 
I've got a LaserMax on my Glock 23 (paid about 325; not sure if they make them for the Ruger, though). It's very cool, but works fairly well too. Is it as accurate as other sighting methods? No. Does it work in bright sunlight? No. But it't extremely quick to acquire, it's accurate enough for defensive purposes, and the laser is extremely intimidating if you're standing on the business end of it.
 
YMMV, and no offense to laser users, but in my opinion lasers do not have a place on a defensive handgun. They only work well in low light scenarios, their battery life is very limited, and they take the focus away from the sights. They instill bad shooting habits if the shooter starts to rely on his laser too much. Also, they are hard to zero in, and they don't keep a consistent zero. The battery might fail in an inopportune moment, and the "always on" lasers may give your position away. The contact switch models give you one more control to fiddle with in addition to trigger and safety in a high-stress scenario. Lasers add to the bulk of the gun (except LaserMax guide rod models), and they screw up the holster fit for model-specific holsters. They are also very expensive. I like my tools simple, and the laser just hasn't proven its worth over a good pair of night sights to me.

Regarding intimidation: it may be a factor in a home defense scenario, but if you start placing red dots on people in a street self defense scenario in order to intimidate them into backing down, you are in trouble. If your muzzle points in the direction of the bad guy, you'd better be pulling that trigger instead of trying to get the BG to notice the red dot on his chest. If you don't have a reason to pull that trigger just yet, the gun has no business being out of the holster and pointed at said BG.

Just my $0.02....but I am full of it anyway. :)

[This message has been edited by lendringser (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
I like my laser in my G27 for the simple purpose of intimidating the hell out of anyone I put the dot on.
When I pull my gun, the hope is NOT to have to fire it. That red dot is very intimidating as the perp sees exactly where the hole is going to go ;)
 
In some places if you put a dot on someone, they have a right to shoot you. Of course, if you point a gun at someone they have a right to shoot you. If you draw, the decision should have already been made to fire to stop the target. If that decision has not been made you have no business drawing.
 
i just thought of something while reading this, i don't even know if it would work. i wouldn't spend $300+ for it, but a rubber band and laser pointer might work. has anybody with laser sight used it while dry firing to work on their grip and trigger control and check for flinching? it seems like it would work really well.
 
I use a set of laser grips on my various .45's as a training aid only.

I have been using them to 1) teach my left hand to shoot and 2) get a feel for point shooting.

The laser comes off after the range session.

Marty
 
It always seems to be a great over-simplification when I read the "if you draw you must fire" posts. I agree that if you draw on the street you must be *willing* to fire, and in a situation where you *can* fire, but that doesn't mean you *must* fire immediately, unless, of course, the threat is such that you must. I can think of a dozen situations in which you should draw your gun, but firing immediately would be a bad idea. For example, medium range with a knife in the BG hands. I would draw with the intention of firing the instant it became necessary, but would hope to give the BG a split second to tuck tail and run.

I would never suggest the use of equipment solely for the intimidation factor, but to suggest that you never use the gun for intimidation on the street because you will always fire if you draw doesn't seem realistic to me. I just couldn't trust myself to draw that fast if I had to wait until the BG was in my face and about to stab me. The knowledge that just the presence of a gun stops the BG in many cases also lends to that argument.

No flame intended, just a difference of opinion. I probably wouldn't want a laser do to points indicated, (cost, battery, habbits, etc) but not because it wouldn't be useful for intimidation. I'll take any edge I can get in that regard.

Kiffster

------------------
Sig 229 .40 - When you care enough to shoot the very best!
 
Kiffster, well said.

%99 or more of defensive uses of a gun result in NO shots fired. Denying that a gun can be used to intimidate someone into stopping illegal activity is absurd. Cops use them all the time for that purpose, and people use guns up to 2.5 millions times a year in America to stop a crime without a shot fired (that is over 5,000 a day, not including cops!).

No one said that we would not plan on shooting if we had to, but there is that instant after you draw down that the perp and you decide if the situation continues to deadly force. A laser dot on the perps chest is proven to be an added deterent because it visualizes that he will be shot right there if he does not cease and desist.

I would never pull a gun unless I needed it desperately, and I would never pull a gun unless I completely knew I could use it. But, I also hope that I don't have to and reality shows that the far percentage of the time, the intimidation of a gun will stop the situation. A laser sight is proven to help in this regard.
 
Tis a toughie.....I did not mean to imply that you MUST fire if you draw.

But, if you draw without the intention of firing, hopefully the BG will be intimidated. If he is not intimidated he then has an advantage over you. Unless you can read his mind, your first indication that he is esclating the situation will be when he has started his move. Since you have to then make the decision to fire and then fire, you may well be either tied or you are the slower to shoot. I think time required for average adult to make the decision and pull the trigger is about 3/4 second. Very quick and well trained person can do it in about 0.4 sec. If the move has already started, time to draw and place a shot falls within that time frame. Thus the potential for a tie.

If totaly certain the BG does not have a firearm and is a reasonable distance away, then you may be warrented in drawing carefully, keeping the finger out of the trigger area for the purpose of stoping him by threat alone.

A very fine line to walk either way.

Sam
 
Had an interesting training session once. Watched a lecture, and after it was done, the lecturer wanted to know how many of us noticed that we were being lit up.

Nobody noticed. Not a one of us.

It isn't human nature to look down at your torso--particularly during a high-speed, high-stress situation.

A critter getting ready to jump someone is not going to be admiring the way his new jacket hangs on his chest, he's going to be focussed, tunnelled-in so-to-speak, on his intended target. (That would be you.)

If you wave the beam across his eyes so that he knows you've got a laser, he's going to see the laser flash originating from that pistol in your hand!. Now he darn sure isn't going to be looking at his torso. His beady little orbs are going to be riveted on your weapon.

I'm not real sold on the intimidation value of a laser sight. Fun to play with, though.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
Not to be argumentative, but we need to explore this a little more perhaps.

It is alluded that there are only a couple of situations where you ever pull your gun.
Either the bad guy has a gun and you have to shoot him or he does not have a gun and you have no right to shoot him.

This only addresses two out of of an enormous variety of situations where one might pull a gun.

Bad guys don't use guns only. They use all kind of weapons and do all kinds of bad things. Sometimes they pull a knife at 30 feet and you need to convince them that if they step closer they will be performated. A red dot on the chest and your pointing it out to them has been shown to make them think twice.
You don't always pull a gun to defend yourself, but to defend others. And, you don't always pull a gun to defend life, but innocence as well. You can use deadly force to stop sexual assault, for instance (as well as Arson and other things).
Say for example you come upon a mutant trying to rape a woman. He is in the initial stages of attack. He is on top of her. Do you shoot him stone dead and risk hitting her as well? Even if you killed him without hitting her, do you think a jury would look kindly on your shooting someone in the back with no attempt to talk them down? No, you draw down on him, light him up with the laser and say "cease and desist muther ****er or die". (Or something like that ;) ). If he stills acts aggresively, point out the dot on his chest.
Another scenario: three mutants surround you and plan to beat you down. They pose "disparity of force" but no weapons. You could technically shoot them, but it would be most undesirable to shoot them and face the jury. You will if you must. Pull your gun, light up a couple of them on their chests and make the laser obvious that it is pointing at their friends' chests as well as their own. Shoot if you must but try like hell not to because you do not want to face a jury on this one.
I could go on and on. There are myriad scenarios where you pull your gun and they are not cut and dry. The laser gives you another tool in the tool box. If it is of no use, ten no problem, but if it comes in handy it could save your butt.
There is a true story of a man who stopped a BG from digging a shotgun out of his car trunk by putting a laser dot on his chest. Argue if you like, but time and again, putting a red dot on someone has been proven to make them think twice. Maybe Hollywierd has engrained it into people or whatnot, but people get real scared when the laser hits them.

You can also fire from cover positions or point shooting with a laser, without lining up the regular sights if you HAVE to. Once again, this is not a normal thing, but let's use our imagination here. Bad days do not always include the "bad guy" standing in front of you and the two of you drawing down to see who the fastest is. Street scenarios are as endless as our imagination because really wierd stuff happens when TSHTF.

I am not preaching, nor arguing, but I am just saying that the laser is a tool in your toolbox and it can come in handy if you think about it and use it with some wit.

As far as I can tell, I cannot see a reason NOT to have a laser, because mine is a Lasermax that fits inside the gun, replacing the guide rod. There is no added bulk, it is just there if I want it. The only downside is the cost of it, and I can totally understand why someone would not want to spend the cash on something they will probably never use.


I have been in some hairy and wierd situations, and yet I have never used a laser. BUT, I know some hardcore cops who draw down on people as a daily routine (some really BAD people) and they swear up and down that a laser is one hell of an intimidation device that has kept them from having to shoot a lot of people. If agencies could afford to, most would issue them to every cop.
 
I have Crimson Trace laser sights on my Sig P228, which I use for home defence. I figure if a robber sees the laser coming around the corner, they will make tracks; if not it will help me zero in quickly on the target.

In a stressful situation like defending your home, any advantage is helpful.

[This message has been edited by lucky085 (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
Red Bull & Kiffster, I agree with EVERYTHING you said but I think that the percentage is actually somewhere around 90-95 and not 99 but what's a few percentage points among fellow board members :D
 
My two cents on the matter: laser sights are good for two things. One is playing with the cat watching it chase the beam on the wall. The other is for a bunker man on an entry team. Bunker operators use their sidearm with one hand, the other holds the bunker, kinda difficult to aim and hold that thing still.
 
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