LAPD Lady Officer Inept Part #2

I saw the show too, but I think you had to see it and also understand what we may not have seen(creative editing)before you rush to judgement. Gun handling skills aside for a second, I think she was a fine officer. Very professional to the people she dealt with on the job. So what she was hamming it up a little. I know for a fact there's all kinds of jokers on this board and I think we may have done the same. The officer I think should be patrolling a desk is the the cocky, smart a#$ black officer that liked to talk down to everybody. Shannon, the female officer did have problems on the range but from what I saw did fire several rounds on target (not tite groups but ok) and half way thru had the malfuntion. She admitted her mistakes and said she knew she would have to requalify. What are you going to do? Beat the tar out of yourself on camera for making a mistake about not cleaning your gun. Also, I'm sure it was heavily edited. There's no way to know what she tried to do to correct the problem.
If I ever do go to LA one day and have a police contact... I sure hope it is with her. She was hot!!! Nothing like an attractive lady packing heat.
 
I hope you have the same feelings when you have to dial 911 at three A.M. when your house is being broken into (I know, grab your Glock and forget calling 911) and some 6-3 armed three striker is trying to make you into food. I am sure you would want old Shannon showing up to take care of business-if she isn't having a good cry when things get tough.
 
I sincerely apologize for re-opening an old wound, but I have been away from my cpu for a few days, and didn't have a chance to respond to this ad.
While reading the article, and seeing other similiar documentaries, it raises many questions.

I will start by saying that me and my wife are both ex-Marines. Standards in the military are like no other, as I am sure you are all aware. As Marines, we are constantly required to train in weapons handling, weapons cleaning, maintenance, physical fitness, grooming standards, weight control, just to name a few. The majority of weapons maintenance is done on "our" time. We are required to qualify, and I mean "qualify" with our weapons on the range, and required to "pass" a PFT (physical fitness test) bi-annually.

I am by no way comparing LE to the military, but since LE is a para-military orginization, shouldn't they require similiar standards, not just entry level quals? And if they do qual annually, what happens to the ones that repeatedly fail? As Marines, we were trained so much with our weapons, that we could take the darn thing apart in a matter of seconds, and throw a round from 500 yards and score a kill. Since LEO's are entrusted with our lives on a daily basis, qualifications should be held atleast bi-annually at a minimum, with stricter rules and guidelines.
And as far as physical fitness, geez louise.
We all know that is entry level, and remains there. I look up to the officer who takes pride in his job, and the badge that empowers him. But if that officer could care less about the weapon on his hip that "could" save his life, or anyone else's life, or if he could barely climb a 6 foot wall because he doesn't want to drop his donut, than there is a serious problem. I do realize the military trains for combat/peace missions, which is much less than your average PD/SD. The training we received is something I will carry with me for the rest of my life. Since LEO's encounter dangerous situations on a daily basis, don't you think that the department should atleast exceed the standards set forth, or atleast raise them just a bit?
Bottom line, standards need to be raised.

These comments in no way reflect my opinion of LAPD. I have the utmost respect for LEO, as the majority of them are highly skilled and take pride in their job.

Nor does this reflect my opinion of women and weapons. My wife's first experience with my HK USP .40 was outstanding, placing no more than a 4 inch group at 10 yards .

Thank you for your time...

JJC



[This message has been edited by JJCook (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glock-n-Tankbag:
If I ever do go to LA one day and have a police contact... I sure hope it is with her. She was hot!!! Nothing like an attractive lady packing heat.[/quote]

Not to mention handcuffs. ;)
 
I saw that show too, and I didnt think that officer wasnt all that bad. Ive seen worse cops male and female. I worked in a gun shop that had an attached range and the local cops all came to do their qualifications there. Out of like 15 officers there was only one who could shoot well, 2 or 3 that were fairly competent and the rest just plain sucked. Just remember, COP'S FOR THE MOST PART ARENT GUN PEOPLE! I can remember one instance where on the state required 50 round qual test I had to give the PD's range officer 5 more rounds so he didnt have to fail his shift supervisor! There was another officer who used to bring me her gun because she didnt know how to clean it or take it apart. These officers in my home town dont get to show their ineptness on national TV like that one young woman did and I think thats punishment enough for her. I doubt very much that woman even shot or handled very many weapons before she pinned her badge on. So if you think that one officer was bad on the range, she did make a felony arrest later on the show and she seemed somewhat professional. I think the editors of the show wanted the audience to see that cops were human not robots. Heres one thing to chew on about cops that make the officer in question sound like Rambo in comparison. One of my professors in college was a cop for a number of years. A few years ago he went to a training seminar sponsored by the LAPD. When the class was over and he had some time to kill before going home he was invited to go on a ride along in the Newton Divison which is a very high crime area. During roll call the shift sergeant decided that he was going to hold a weapon inspection. He found two female officers who were partners to have not even one round of ammuniton between them! Before the Sergeant's blood pressure went through the roof he asked why they didnt have any ammo, they indignantly told him they didnt take the job to hurt people. They had to clear out the squad room because many of their fellow officers were incensed and they almost caused a riot. The two officers were quietly transfered out of the division to admistrative jobs. I just thought Id share that little tidbit with you guys.
 
The problem with the PC movement is it seeks to force equality where it makes no sense to do so. For example, in LEO training there are no separate tests... that would be discriminatory... so standards have been lowered for everyone. I would rather not see any incompetent LEOs, regardless of sex, on the job because it puts everyone at risk. Unfortunately, the tests were lowered as a result of litigation over discrimination, meaning that someone decided that the reason a certain segment of the population (in this case the women) were "underrepresented" (A fancy PC term meaning that the occupation has less than the 50/50 male/female ratio of the general population) in law enforcement was possibly due to discrimination. Fair enough. But upon investigation, the PC group discovered the 'barrier to entry' (a PC term describing any test or requirement that attempts to determine a persons competency compared to another person, and thereby "discriminate" against the less qualified individual) was the demanding physical test and requirements. The PC movement believes that any failure of such tests is de facto discrimination. Therefore, women failed the tests not because of a lack of ability to perform the requirements, but because the requirements were designed to be biased and discriminating. This is a strange twist of logic that has tried to mutate the idea of "equal opportunity" into "equal achievement" or "equal success". Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal success. The only system which tries to guarantee (force?) equal achievement is communism, and that's not exactly the principle America was founded on, thank you.

I hope more rational people believe that if you fail the tests, its your fault, not some conspiracy to keep you down. Too bad if the realization that you are simply not qualified for a certain occupations hurts your feelings. Get over it. Start over, study, train, weight-lift and do whatever you have to do. If you have the right stuff, you'll pass whether your a man or a woman. I've seen body building magazines with issues that featured women of body building. Most of those gals would be quite capable kicking the butt of your average 200lb male, or at the very least, holding her own against him. And guess what? I would wager they would also pass the same LEO/military qualifications as men, would make fine officers, and would not be a liability as a backup. Does anyone here believe that the because the majority of women are not and could not be female body builders proves there is discrimination in the body building community?

I have no problems with women as LEOs or military, provided they pass the exact SAME requirements as the men. The requirements are designed to test the ability to perform demanding physical tasks, and are difficult because of the nature of the job. Isn't that fair after all? Let's fact it, LE is not an easy task, and has many inherent dangers not present in civilian jobs, and unqualified people in those position could spell disaster. Failing a difficult test that the majority of the guys pass is not discrimination. Not even allowing someone to take the test in the first place IS discrimination. Too bad as a nation, we've forgotten the difference.
 
Data from objective sources that females are less successful on equivalent duty than men?

Anecdotes don't count. We certainly have had many discussions of crappy male cops. So the
bad lady cop is certainly matched by the bad male cop story.

The professional literature that I've seen say that they do pretty well. You might say that is forced to be PC but criminology journals are pretty objective.
 
This entire thread sure is discouraging for my interest in Law Enforcement. I guess I was not aware how some men officers felt about women as LEO’s. That’s a shame.

Luckily, as far as my enquiry’s into Law Enforcement in this area, I have not received this type of negative response. I'm not in LA and I’m not a cop, but if I were, I could see how a woman would find it difficult working with this type of negativism from her fellow male officers.

I read a book once where a cop commented “lady cops are always trying to prove themselves and that can be dangerous.”

Is it any wonder why she may feel this intimidation?




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Shooter's Enrichment Program/Forum
 
This goes out to Massshooter, well I spend 40 plus hours a week in a squad car with one of those affirmative action females...Maybe she is the exception to the rule but she's a damn fine partner...Better than a lot of men I know...I also served in the military for 10 years and encountered women that were soldiers...I also encountered men that werent...I do agree that we,LEO's, should have a standard that is adhered to much the same as the military...But to blame the lazy cop on all cops is BS, not quite as much as blaming it on the sex of the officer...Dont judge anyone till you walk a mile in their shoes...Oh yea my partner can shoot and she's the level head in our twosome...Stay Safe..
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LadydeeJ:
I read a book once where a cop commented “lady cops are always trying to prove themselves and that can be dangerous.”

Is it any wonder why she may feel this intimidation?

[/quote]

Proving oneself is a daily challenge for men and women alike in law enforcement. If anyone thinks they've got it made and don't have to compete, they're just fooling themselves.

I found this to be true in naval aviation also.
 
LadydeeJ,

By all means, go ahead with an interest in Law Enforcement.

I have worked with several lady officers, and I have been nothing but impressed. They have brought, and continue to bring, a different perspective to The Job.

Remember, most Law Enforcement work is People Skills. Something that most ladies know far more about than the men do.

Most of the women I have taught Basic Pistol Skills to, have usually done better than the male cadets. I believe that it may have something to do with the fact that the ladies don't believe that a 'Y' chromosome automatically imparts genetic knowledge of guns. *sigh* They tend to actually learn when they are taught. It can be quite refreshing.

Yes, you are probably smaller than most critters. Yes, you probably have less upper body strength. No, you don't bring a lot of mass to a brawl.

You do have a brain. You tend to use that brain in situations where male cops tend to revert to primal grunts and tree-shaking. You have an understanding of men that I will never have. This is invaluable in Law Enforcement.

If you choose LE, get good training. Work for a good department and find a partner who is willing to let you do the talking and him do the hulking. Both of you, the Department and (most importantly) The Public, will benefit.

Trust me.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 02, 2000).]
 
If anyone i ride with is honest and gives 100% while i'm with them i don't care what gender they are. Fact is; there a couple of women i went thru school [law enforcement] that i rather partner with than several men i've had to ride with.

Having a woman as a patner can be helpful in many ways, ie... domestic situations, child abuse cases, searchs of female prisnors, rape cases, etc...

Gender discrimination is just that, it's lame and people who encourage it are lame too. So why make it harder than it already is? Were all on the same team..
 
If there are physical fitness requirements for LE personnel and females are weaker in all areas of physical fitness than males, then why do they have to do less than male personnel instead of the same or even more as far as physical fitness requirements? If they are required to do the same, there can be no more legitimate b*tches. Without doing the same, there will always be legitimate b*tches.
 
This will be my last post on this issue. I tend to get a little emotional when fighting for things I believe in and have a tendency to step on a few toes.

While I was an employee at the hospital it was a daily ritual to lift, move or carry patients from the emergency room to the X-ray table. It was not uncommon for the women technicians to call available men to offer their assistance with lifting. The men never complained and were always willing to offer their assistance. It was team effort that got that body from the stretcher to the table. On the other hand, when the men needed something, the women were right there. We all worked together, and an excellent team we had.

It is impossible for me to say that I, or any other woman, has strength equal to that of a man, but women can offer other strengths were men seem to lack. For instance, not calling men bastards or other blatant names like the poster above chose to use. :)




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Shooter's Enrichment Program/Forum
 
Ladydeej,

There are a minority of physically capable females. It is a disservice to those females as well as physically qualified males when non-physically capable females get free passes. The "b*tches" simply equates with complaints (legitimate complaint = legitimate b*tch). Sorry for the confusion.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by depmur:
This goes out to Massshooter, well I spend 40 plus hours a week in a squad car with on of those females...Maybe she is the exception ...Better than a lot of men I know...Dont judge anyone till you walk a mile in their shoes...[/quote]

I didn't intend to offend anyone, nor put down female officers in general. A person should be a cop/soldier if that person can pass a set of objective tests designed to prove competency to do the job... regardless of race, color, creed, sex, sexual orientation, etc. I am not stating that all female cops are affirmative action candidates-- far from it. So to all the good female officers: thanks for a job well done.

I have followed the PC movement, and it confounds the mind. The re-occurring theme is that if any one segment of the population does not have the same achievement or success as another segment, it must be a result of discrimination. This eventually leads to lowering of objective criteria to eliminate the supposed discrimination, which in the end hurts everyone. This is not limited to military/law enforcement. It happens with higher education, technical jobs, medical jobs, you name. (An interesting book on the subject is "End of Sanity" by Martin Gross).

In one case a women's right group sued the CA forest fire service for discrimination because the % of female firefighters did not equal the % of females in the general population (43%). Even though there were not enough qualifiedwomen in the labor pool, they lost. End result: the forest service literally turned away experienced male applicants. They even ran an add that said only unqualified applicants may apply. Please tell me you don't think this is progress. Nor do I believe it is a slight against women in any way. I'll say it again: if they (inert any oppressed group here) can pass the same high standards as everyone else, give 'em the job.

For example, there is a big push underway right now to get more women into medicine and science. This is a respectable goal, but only if the same high level of objective criteria that has been used all along is maintained when selecting our future medical students, grading tests, professional license etc. In some cases, students were admitted to schools with lower than acceptable levels of test scores. Such decisions were justified by "life experience" or "extra cirricular activities", depth of character, etc etc. All well and good, but when you are under the knife for triple bypass do you really care if your doctor played the tuba or was in the glee club? No, you want the best doctor, even if that doctor is not quite as sociable.

And don't fall into the PC trap of believing anyone who points out that maintaining high standards to weed out incompetents is a bigot. That simply isn't true. In fact, my doctor is female, and I work with many Asian, Indian, Chinese and African American people at a technical company. Those people are very talented, some are smarter than me, and I certainly don't begrudge them their success. There any many talented women/minorities who truly deserve their success and plenty of incompetent men in a variety of professions. But remember this: all those incompetent men made it to where they are with the "old fashioned" relatively high level of requirements. What would happen if standards were lowered even more?
 
Ever see the videos of women trying out to be firemen? Where ONE man could take a ladder and put it up to a window, TWO women were fumbling with it and some of them never even got it up there. Meanwhile someone is burning to death. Breaking down doors? Dragging and controlling heavy hoses? Carrying incapacitated people out of a burning building? But, they let these women pass anyway to fill quotas and they eventually lower standards so that more women can pass them.
When you are trapped on that second floor building and someone is trying to get a ladder up to your window, do you want the one who can do it easily or the one that cannot? Sounds like an easy question doesn't it? When you are trapped in a burning building do you want a weaker person trying to bust down the door and carry you out? If your life was on the line, who would YOU want to show up?
But, I guess lives don't matter. Being politically correct matters. It is not PC to say that women are just not as good as men at some jobs (and vice versa!).
SOME women are qualified, and to them I say: go for it. But if you cannot pass the same requirements as the man who is trying out for the job, then you are riding on the coattails of affirmative action. These days the standards even for male recruits are so pathetic, that they are not even a worthy goal, really, but they are a start. All the standards have been lowered so low that they might as well get rid of them, like the LAPD did with the 5 foot rule.
I had a girlfriend who is now a cop. She insisted on passing all the "mens" qualifications standards. She did all the pushups in proper form (rather than on her knees), all the chinups, and everything. I had great respect for that. I would have no problem riding with this female officer (and to address some other posts above she was VERY attractive, not that that matters a bit to the job....but the point is, attractive women can be good cops too, not just the "butch" ones. They just have to try a little harder to pass the same quals). A woman, if she trains hard, CAN be as strong as a medium sized man, and women should be required to train hard until they DO. Very simply: make reasonable qualifications for a medium sized man, and if the women can't pass it, then they need to workout until they do. No one has any problem with a woman being a cop. It is the unqualified women who go into jobs that they are inferior at, and they get these jobs just to fill quotas, NOT because they are qualified.
There are many men that could not pass the strength tests for a middle sized man either, and to them I'd say the same thing: go workout until you do, otherwise you are an unqualified candidate.
To accomadate weak women, we have lowered and eliminated all standards for strength etc to become a police officer or fire fighter. It sounds nice and fair and all, until it is YOUR ass that is on the line, and then suddenly you want the best person for the job, not the one that filled a quota. When I am working on the beat, I want the best candidate watching my back, not the politically correct one. Polictical correctness like this might work out okay in other fields where lives are not on the line, but where lives are on the line, specifically MY life and your life, then I just want the best person for the job.

There was a shooting recently in my brother's home town where a few cops shot a man who was wielding a tree branch. The cops on scene were mostly women and smaller guys. There were a number of them, and they should have been able to easily disarm a wierdo with a tree branch. But, due to their limitations, they could not wrestle a man with a stick, so they shot him to death. This is not fair to the public. If you had a few 180 pound, physically fit men there, they could have EASILY tackled the person and wrestled the stick from him, but with the smaller (often female) officers they did not have that option, so they shot him. Smaller, weaker officers, no matter what sex, are a liability to their partners and to the public. They invite violence more because they are not as threatening, they are often a liability rather than a help in a wrestling situation (if someone gets a gun away from one of the weaker officers, then I am the one that gets shot. I would rather these officers just stay out of it and step back because they are more of a liability to me than a help) and lastly, these officers are a danger to the public because like in the situation above, they don't have the OPTION to overpower a man with a stick, so they resort right to lethal force and kill him. A larger, stronger officer could have taken the man down by force and saved a life. There are countless examples of this kind fo thing, but you will never see the reports because it is not politically correct to notice the truth.
We all know that when we are arresting a three striker that we would want large men (or exceptionally large strong women) as our partners, but we pretend that it is not a problem because it is politically incorrect to notice things like that. Female officers are okay for the social situations etc, but it all depends on the district you work in and the types of calls you get. Maybe they should have women officers who are not as physicall qualified be part of a special task force that just responds to socail calls? Yeah, I know, that would be some sort of segregation and we can't have that! But, if we think that women have the good (better?) social skills it would make sense to take advantage of that and send them specifically on social calls, while you have the men on standard patrol and responding to violent calls. Okay, so I am dreaming, that makes far too much sense.
 
The lady cops (2) I have worked with did not make the grade when it came to fights, gun situations, and were very quick to take sides in domestic situations.

I can take care of myself BUT once in a while I need some help and I want someone coming to help me that can hold their own should the SHTF.

How in the world can a 130 lb. woman be expected to hold her own with a 200lb man?
 
As far as shooting is concerned: sex has nothing to do with it. Males and females alike can master firearms. Both can also be apothetic toward their guns.

As for the physical side of it: The phrase "its not the size of the man in the fight it is the size of the fight in the man" applies to women, too. Training, execution, and good technique can make up for size/strength deficienies. A case by case evaluation should be made.

Women are found to be far better at their verbal skills than their male counterparts. This is no small factor to overlook.

Erik
 
I agree with Erik. Highly skilled people can make up for their size. Take a look at Royce Gracie in the Ultimate Fighting Championship. He was much lighter than many of his opponents, yet he still won. Size matters, but it isn't everything.
 
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