Lands measurement process failure...

Y

Yosemite Steve

New member
Alright... I am officially back to the old drawing board. :mad:

All of my data involving distance from the lands is false. I noticed that my recent loading that I did with initial Superformance powder work ups were jams. The bolt was a tad stiff going down and I had flattened primers at starting loads. I stopped after the fifth load showed some flowing of the primer into the pocket bevel. There was no hard bolt lift or extraction.

I have been using the marker or candle soot process shown here: https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-an...mine-proper-bullet-seating-depth-for-your-gun

For whatever reason my initial lands measurement was invalid. My excellent hunting rounds that I developed with the 180 SST were indeed jams. They did all have somewhat flattened primers.

I am down to making a decision on what tool to purchase for measuring my lands. The Hornady Lock N Load O.A.L. gauge was what I was initially going to buy. I am also looking at the RCBS Precision Mic which measures to the ogive. :confused:

I would suggest against using the Nosler method for finding the lands at this point as it is too easy to get bad data. My new measurement for the COAL for this same bullet at the lands is 3.330 +or- .003 variance for same box bullets. My previous endeavors brought this same bullet to a COAL of 3.374!
Part of this miscalculation is also due to the fact that I was originally using a crummy caliper that only read to hundredths of an inch.

I would love to see some input here!
 
The Hornady stick with the fake case is ok, but I find you can add about .015 to it before a bullet sticks.

I do use the OGIVE tools with the inserts.

When I use it I just use the measurement as is and assume, that can be dangerous of course.

My go to now is I put a bullet in a sized case (Savage allows a mid set safety that allows you to work the bolt so its usualy a loaded round, better is not of cousre)

I then seat the bullet out from the Honray mesuremtn by .030.

Genly close the bolt, usualy it sticks (most bullets need a gentle tap to get the bolt back)

I then seat .010 deeper, repeat as needed.

Its not spot on, but when the bolt close I know I am no more than .005 off.

I then seat another .010 deeper as a start. That ensure any error and bullet OGIVE variation does not bite me.
 
what projectiles in what cartridge? Not that it really matters. I don't want to derail the thread, but with many projectiles I've found that finding the lands and parking the bullet just thousandths of an inch away is overrated. How important is it to you to be able to kiss the lands. I've experienced the same as you, that pressures spike REALLY fast there.
 
what projectiles in what cartridge? Not that it really matters. I don't want to derail the thread, but with many projectiles I've found that finding the lands and parking the bullet just thousandths of an inch away is overrated. How important is it to you to be able to kiss the lands. I've experienced the same as you, that pressures spike REALLY fast there.
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Savage 110 30-06 shooting 180 SST. I get terrible groups seated to spec. I am suspecting that the original caliper I was using got way off zero and that was how my COAL of 3.374 came about. In actuality it was more like 3.335. I measured over and over today doing it the caveman way and got 3.330 on the lands consistently after much practice. My next batch will be seated .010 deeper and I will develop my powder charge from there. My friend has the RCBS precision mic and wants $35 for it and that is a bargain! It uses ogive and with also measure head space.

I was shooting those jams at 50.0 grains of IMR 4064! No big pressure signs other than the flat primers. I guessed them at 2850 fps but my new chronograph said 2637 at 15 degrees F. Never had a hard extraction or stiff bolt or any head stress signs. It was a humbling mistake just the same.

I shot a three in one hole with that load at 100 yds. on Monday!
 
I use the Sinclair tool to measure the initial bullet seating depth when loading for bolt action rifles. It uses the actual bullet you will be loading. This probably does not make any difference unless you are loading EXD (secant) bullets.
 
After using various methods during my 40 years of hand loading, I settled on the following process recommended by John Wooters in his book, Practical Reloading. You will use your own brass and bullets.

Drop the desired bullet into the chamber and lightly tap it against the lands so it doesn't fall out.
Advance an aluminum cleaning rod down the muzzle until it comes into contact with the bullet.
Make a half-circle line on the rod at the muzzle with a fine point "Magic Marker"-be sure to keep the tip in contact with the muzzle edge
Knock the bullet out and seat into an empty sized case such that it chambers with slight resistance. If it won't chamber seat it deeper; if it seats too easily, knock it out slightly with a bullet puller (hammer-type)
Once the seated round is chambered, insert the cleaning rod again and make another mark, but full circle.

If your seated bullet reveals a single circle line, you are at seated at the lands. Measure this OAL to the ogive with a tool like Stoney Point attached to your caliper.
If the line is above the first half line, your bullet is seated too deeply. If below the half line, it is not deep enough. Make adjustments until you have one complete circle at the original half-line.

Regarding Roadkill's post, I agree it may not be that important to seat to thousands of an inch. But starting at the lands and moving out to a "sweet spot" can be advantageous.
For example, using the technique above, in a Browning X-Bolt, 6.5mm Creedmoor, with 40gr of H4350 and CCI 200 primers, I loaded 4 different 140gr bullets at 0.015" and 0.02" from the rifling, 3 shots each. Here were the results:

Hornady 140 SP 0.015" group 0.361" 0.020" = 0.198"

Sierra 140 BTSP 0.015" group 0.861" 0.020" = 0.3298"

Hornady 140 SST 0.015" group 1.111" 0.020" = 1.111"

Berger 140 VLD Hunter 0.015" 0.736" 0.020"= 0.6735"
 
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Just use the Max OAL given in your manual. 3.340" for .30-06. Measured from the pointy bit to the flat bit with no ogives involved.
"...what tool to purchase for measuring my lands..." There isn't one. Easiest tool to use is a digital vernier calipre. Feeler gauges can be used to calibrate and check the accuracy.
And 50.0 grains of IMR4064 is over max for a 180 grain bullet.
If you really think searching for the off-the-lands spot will be fun(Strictly a trial and error thing. There is no formula and no set distance.), load an unprimed, no powder round with no crimp and the bullet long and a bit loose. Chamber it and it should stop on the lands and push the bullet into the case more until the bolt closes. Measure the cartridge and back off the OAL starting at about 20 thou. And then fiddle with it up and down until you're happy with the group size.
Just remember that an SST is not a match grade bullet and a Savage 110 is a hunting rifle.
 
I have never measured bolt face to lands, no idea what I have. To me it's not important, just another number to have to keep around. I measure bolt face to tip of the bullet. Instead I use a cleaning rod with a plug in it and a bullet. With the bolt in, I slide the rod down to the blot face and mark the end of the rod at the muzzle with a piece of tape. Then remove the bolt and drop a bullet in the chamber and hold it there with a wood pencil. Now slide in the rod again and than mark to rod again at the muzzle with the whits tape. The length to start at is the distance between the tape that was against the muzzle. At that you will get the bullet into the lands so make up a dummy starting there and try chambering, do not force it! Re-set again turning the die down maybe a quarter turn and try again. Usually do this several time's to gte the bullet just off the lands. Pay attention to the ogive of the bullet every time. You'll reach a point where it will chamber easily but the bullet is still on the lands, you'll see very faint scratches on the bullet.. re-size again till they are gone! In some 45 yrs of reloading this way, it has never given me a problem. Once your there, set the die and lock it. It will work for every thing you might load after that in that rifle. keep in mind that regardless the bullet, the distance from the web of the case and the ogive will not change. The ogive may change on you but the dia. of it will always be the same. I have read that the ogive on the bullet's is not uncommon to change in manufacturer. the distance where the seating plug touch's it from case rim to lands will never change, that's what you have in the seating die.
 
Just use the Max OAL given in your manual. 3.340" for .30-06. Measured from the pointy bit to the flat bit with no ogives involved.
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With what I have measured that is a .010" jam in my gun. I don't want to jam it.

And 50.0 grains of IMR4064 is over max for a 180 grain bullet.
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Yes it over max in the book but where I had things set up at the time I was getting 2635 fps. I worked up to 51 and stated getting pressure signs on the primers and backed off a grain. I am going to work up my load again with this new seating depth and go from there. I now have a chronograph which should help me find the nodes I'm looking for.

If you really think searching for the off-the-lands spot will be fun(Strictly a trial and error thing. There is no formula and no set distance.), load an unprimed, no powder round with no crimp and the bullet long and a bit loose. Chamber it and it should stop on the lands and push the bullet into the case more until the bolt closes. Measure the cartridge and back off the OAL starting at about 20 thou. And then fiddle with it up and down until you're happy with the group size.
Just remember that an SST is not a match grade bullet and a Savage 110 is a hunting rifle.
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I plan to use a precision tool for my future endeavors. As for the SST I have had some good results with it and my old Savage hunting rifle will get the best I can give it as far as accurate ammo. One shot clean kills and shot confidence are more important to me than meat in the freezer. I went from factory ammo shooting 4-6" groups to hand loads shooting 3/4 MOA and occasionally better.
 
I am down to making a decision on what tool to purchase for measuring my lands.
Click to expand...

I started by making a transfer tool, I use the tool to transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. Once I have captured the dimensions of the chamber inside the seating die I adjust it to 'zero'. If I use "all the bullet hold I can get" I do not have to start over everyday.

F. Guffey
 
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I use the cave man method of once fired casing, neck size gradually till bullet sticks in neck but can be still slid aroumd by hand.
Chamber, going full lock on the bolt. Remov. Measure. Subtract 0.015".
This done 3-5 times for consistant readings.

Berger VLD i seat 0.005" deeper than my measurement.

Check for mag fitment, ( you need 3 rounds to fully check it)

Never had a jamming issue with this.
 
I can only speak on the Hornady/Stoney Point tool as it is the only one I have ever used.

It works! Follow the directions and you will have you max OAL in a few minutes. I would also point out that of all the things you can do to make accurate hunting ammo, the OAL adjustment is the very least of them.

Sometimes, just because you like a particular bullet doesn't mean your gun will. I did everything by the book and couldn't get 180 Scirocco's to shoot in my Model 70 300 WSM not matter what. It just doesn't like them for some reason.

I switched to a 200 grain Barnes LRX and no matter what I do to the OAL or even a different powder, it shoots groups that touch at the range. Thinking a little more speed would be nice I tried a 175 LRX, it doesn't shoot near as good.

Get the Hornady tools, they are drop dead simple to use and will get you the info on your chamber you want.

Have fun.
 
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