Knowledge is power

GoSlash27

New member
...so arm yourselves courtesy of Steven Levitt. BTW, if you haven't checked out Freakonomics, I recommend it. They say numbers don't lie, and this guy knows his stuff...by the numbers.

Levitt on gun control:
There are more than 200 million Ž rearms in private hands in the United
States—more than the number of adults (Cook and Ludwig, 1996). Almost two thirds of homicides in the United States involve a Ž rearm, a fraction far greater than other industrialized countries. Combining those two facts, one might conjecture that easy access to guns in the U.S. may be part of the explanation for our unusually high homicide rates. Indeed, the most careful study on the subjectŽ finds that higher rates of handgun ownership, which represent about one-third of all firearms, may be a causal factor in violent crime rates (Duggan, 2001).
There is, however, little or no evidence that changes in gun control laws in the 1990s can account for falling crime.

The Brady bill
For example, the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 instituted stricter requirements for background checks before a gun is sold. However, Ludwig and Cook (2000) report no difference in homicide trends after the passage of the Brady Act in states affected by the law and states that already had policies in place that were at least as stringent as those in the
Brady Act. Given the realities of an active black market in guns (Cook, Molliconi and Cole, 1995), the apparent ineffectiveness of gun control laws should not come as a great surprise to economists. Even in the late 1980s, prior to the Brady Act, only about one-Ž fifth of prisoners reported obtaining their guns through licensed gun dealers (Wright and Rossi, 1994).
Gun buy-back programs are another form of public policy instituted in the
1990s that is largely ineffective in reducing crime. First, the guns that are typically surrendered in gun buy-backs are those guns that are least likely to be used in criminal activities. The guns turned in will be, by deŽfinition, those for which the owners derive little value from the possession of the guns. In contrast, those who are using guns in crimes are unlikely to participate in such programs. Second, because replacement guns are relatively easily obtained, the decline in the number of guns on the streetmay be smaller than the number of guns that are turned in. Third, the likelihood that any particular gun will be used in a crime in a given year is low. In 1999, approximately 6,500 homicides were committed with handguns.
There are approximately 65 million handguns in the United States. Thus, if a different handgun were used in each homicide, the likelihood that a particular handgun would be used to kill an individual in a particular year is one in 10,000. The typical gun buy-back program yields fewer than 1,000 guns. Thus, it is not surprising that research evaluations have consistently failed to document any link between gun buy-back programs and reductions in gun violence (Callahan, Rivera and Koepsell,
1994; Kennedy, Piehl and Braga, 1996; Rosenfeld, 1996; Reuter and Mouzos, 2003).
More stringent gun-control policies such as bans on handgun acquisition
passed in Washington, D.C., in 1976 and the ban on handgun ownership in
Chicago in 1982 do not seem to have reduced crime, either. While initial research suggested a benefiŽcial impact of the D.C. gun ban (Loftin, McDowall, Weirsema and Cottey, 1991), when the city of Baltimore is used as a control group, rather than the affluent Washington suburbs, the apparent beneŽfits of the gun ban disappear (Britt, Kleck and Bordua, 1996).
Although no careful analysis of Chicago’s gun ban
has been carried out, the fact that Chicago has been a laggard in the nationwide homicide decline argues against any large impact of the law. From a theoretical perspective, policies that raise the costs of using guns in the commission of actual crimes, as opposed to targeting ownership, would appear to be a more effective approach to reducing gun crime (for instance, Kessler and Levitt, 1999). The most prominent of these programs, Project Exile, which provides prison sentence enhancements for gun offenders, however, has been convincingly demonstrated to be ineffective by Raphael and Ludwig (2003), apparently in part because of the small scale on which it was carried out.
174 Journal of Economic Perspectives

5) Laws Allowing the Carrying of Concealed Weapons
The highly publicized work of Lott and Mustard (1997) claimed enormous
reductions in violent crime due to concealed weapons laws. The theory behind this claim is straightforward: armed victims raise the costs faced by a potential offender.
The empirical work in support of this hypothesis, however, has proven to be
fragile along a number of dimensions (Black and Nagin, 1998; Ludwig, 1998;
Duggan, 2001; Ayres and Donohue, 2003). First, allowing concealed weapons
should have the greatest impact on crimes that involve face-to-face contact and occur outside the home where the law might affect gun carrying. Robbery is the crime category that most clearly Žfits this description, yet Ayres and Donohue (2003) demonstrate that empirically the passage of these laws is, if anything, positively related to the robbery rate. More generally, Duggan (2001) Ž finds that for crimes that appear to decline with the law change, the declines in crime actually predate the passage of the laws, arguing against a causal impact of the law. Finally, when the original Lott and Mustard (1997) data set is extended forward in time to encompass
a large number of additional law enactments, the results disappear (Ayres and
Donohue, 2003). Ultimately, there appears to be little basis for believing that
concealed weapons laws have had an appreciable impact on crime.

What all this means is that guns have no effect on crime at all. Not bans, not concealed-carry laws, not buybacks.
So any argument to restrict your second amendment rights on the basis of crime have just been busted.

Use it in good health :)
 
And another freebie. The study itself is not yet available online, but the gist can be found in this article:
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/news/79388.php

They're pulled from backyard pools and bathtubs each year, tiny limp bodies, blue and not breathing.
A young life can vanish quickly under water. A survivor can endure a lifetime of disabilities. Either way, families are torn apart by an almost always preventable tragedy.
Standard summer companions in our desert climate, swimming pools can be deadlier for children than guns. A child is 100 times more likely to die in a swimming accident than in gunplay, writes Steven D. Levitt, University of Chicago economics professor and best-selling author.
Levitt analyzed child deaths from residential swimming pools and guns and found one child under 10 drowns annually for every 11,000 pools. By comparison, one child under 10 each year is killed by a gun for every 1 million guns, according to his research, outlined in a new book "Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side to Everything," which he co-wrote with journalist Stephen J. Dubner.
In part because they are so familiar, swimming pools are less frightening than guns, Levitt writes.
But the danger is clear - drowning is the leading cause of accidental death for children younger than 5 in Arizona and the second-leading cause of injury-related death nationally among children younger than 15.
Water kills an average of three children each year in Tucson and, even with proper fences, swimming lessons and caution, danger lurks.
"Living with a swimming pool in your back yard is like living next to the Grand Canyon," said Dr. Bob Berg, a pediatric intensive specialist at University Medical Center and a UA professor. "You should never feel comfortable there."

The implication is clear: If a parent is torn between sending his child to play with Billy (parents have a gun) or Tommy (parents have a pool)...the child would be 100 times safer at Billy's house.
 
death RATE = 1 per 11,000 pools
death RATE = 1 per 1,000,000 guns

200 million guns = 200 deaths
2.2 million pools = 200 deaths

Statistical expression is so slippery.
 
Numbers don't lie? I thought it was: There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damned lies, and statistics. I think this type of arguement is called a "red herring falacy". Drowning death have NOTHING to do with firearms, but they distract from the issue. Like saying why worry about the bird flu when so many people die in car accidents?

http://www.guncite.com/

http://www.gunfacts.info

http://home.pacbell.net/dragon13/reasons2own.html

Better statistics/info

Also try reading one of John Lott's books.
 
● Accidental deaths in Arizona for children, 2000-2003
● Drowning: 140
● Gunshot wound: 15
From the same article.
 
There's no such thing as an accidental discharge or death by a firearm, only negligence on somebody's part. If a kid gets a hold of a gun, it's the parents fault. If someone is hurt cause they aren't fooling around with the gun, that's stupidity, if someone is shot during a holdup, that's a crime. In any case it's not the gun's fault, it's the person or person's. More gun laws are not the solution for the crime rates and so called statistical casualties in this country, personal responsibility is the solution. Proper enforcement of the laws already on the books would solve the crime problems. Not allowing criminals to go free on technicalities or lenient sentences on repeat offenders cause everyone deserves a "second chance".

Doesn't matter how many people die from firearms, destroying the guns and outlawing legal firearm carrying will only hurt this country, not help it. Afterall, it's like drugs. No matter how much progress you think we are making in the war on drugs, there will always be someone willing to sell them and someone willing to buy them. In the criminal world, that goes for anything, drugs, knives, guns, money laundering, etc.

Remember, a gun is just a gun. It takes a person to make it a weapon, and it takes a person to make a killer.

Personal responsibility, always standup for your actions and accept the consequences of those actions. Even if doing the right thing means breaking the law, stand up for what you believe in, but don't run from the outcomes.:cool:

P.S. No matter how high the crime rate is here, it's a lot worse in a lot of other countries.
 
The liberal/left knows very well that guns don't cause crime, they've known all along.

The reason the liberal/left and the democratic party want to take your guns, is that they have plans for even more socialism, even more taxation, even more racial quotas, even more restrictions on christians, even more interference between you and your children, even more government intrusion into every aspect of your life. To the point that they fear armed American citizens might use those arms.

The crime issue is just a smokescreen, a lie, and the democrats have been lieing through their teeth about their motivations to disarm America. They want to rule us, but first they must take away our ability to resist their rule.

Remember this on election days.
 
The highly publicized work of Lott and Mustard (1997) claimed enormous
reductions in violent crime due to concealed weapons laws. The theory behind this claim is straightforward: armed victims raise the costs faced by a potential offender.
The empirical work in support of this hypothesis, however, has proven to be
fragile along a number of dimensions
Lott's data and research has been in the public domain for over eight years now and to my knowledge has never been challenged on any grounds.

Why should anyone believe this guy Levitt, who claims that Lott's research is "fragile?" Just because he says so??

I don't buy it.

Ultimately, there appears to be little basis for believing that
concealed weapons laws have had an appreciable impact on crime.
Therefore, there is no reason for "civilians" to be allowed to carry concealed firearms. That's where this is headed.

More antigun intellectual masturbation.

So any argument to restrict your second amendment rights on the basis of crime have just been busted.
These arguments are invalid - always have been. In the light of real-world experience, you cannot escape the fact that the cities with the most onerous antigun laws have the highest rates of violent crime.
 
I am sick to death of the lack of taking personal responsibility for one's actions in today's society! You own a pool, you're responsible for whatever happens in it. You own a car, you are responsible for what happens in it. You own a firearm, once again, you are responsible for what happens with it. Most "accidents" aren't accidental, they are due to some level of negligence on someone's part. A child drowns in a pool, where were his parents? where were the owners of the pool? A car rearends another, it is not an accident--the driver wasn't paying attention and didn't stop in time, or was speeding and couldn't stop. I broke my pinky toe because I failed to turn on the light in the den when going to the kitchen and ran into an ottoman. Accidental discharges are Negligent discharges. Quit blaming inanimate objects for personal negligence. The infux of new laws passed each year by congress is incredible! There is a law for everything and almost everything possible. So many laws are out there detailing what you can or can't do (mostly can't!). It's time our legislator's seek to simplify the laws, not make them more complicated. Anyone know how many firearm-related laws there are out there? Are the lawyers and legislators just making things complicated to justify their own existence? Our founding fathers were "enablers", not "restrictors". They wrote the Constitution to enable people and to free them of restrictions. "All men are created equal" should not mean "I am allowed, but you're not, because you aren't smart enough to know better", like the liberal left seems to think. (I can own a gun because I am a high profile personality and am important, but you can't own a gun because you are just a regular person that I don't know, therefore don't trust, and I make the laws for you, not me.) The sheer audacity of liberal self importance for the greater good is overwhelming!
Sorry, I gotta stop now and just walk away or else I'd be here all day typing a rant with no end in sight!
 
good.gif
 
mic said:
I am sick to death of the lack of taking personal responsibility for one's actions in today's society! You own a pool, you're responsible for whatever happens in it. You own a car, you are responsible for what happens in it. You own a firearm, once again, you are responsible for what happens with it. Most "accidents" aren't accidental, they are due to some level of negligence on someone's part. A child drowns in a pool, where were his parents? where were the owners of the pool? A car rearends another, it is not an accident--the driver wasn't paying attention and didn't stop in time, or was speeding and couldn't stop.

Mic, I have to disagree with you on the subject of attaching strict liability to someone just because they're the owner of the pool/car/gun, etc.

Here in Florida, we have a LOT of kids drown in pools. I can think of at least five newspaper stories about that subject that I've read in the last year -- and I have an imperfect memory of it.

One of those cases involved a child who was left alone by his parent -- a rich asian woman who went gift shopping for a friend and left her kid alone while she did so. He sneaked out and drowned. Our liberal courts allowed her bail and she skipped the country (earlier this year, I believe) to avoid trial. :mad:

I also read of a case in which a kid drowned in a pool after climbing the fence around the pool to get in!

Now, we can argue about society being better off without a dunce who would intrude (read: "break in") to property that was not his, only to drown in a pool because he went into it not knowing how to SWIM!. But I absolutely renounce any claim that the owner of the pool should be held accountable. And the kid's parents? They too are not responsible for free actions that he took, which chances are were contrary to what they taught him he should do. Should we bring charges against them for not having taught their kid to swim? Come on, now. Really? Is it now a crime to not teach a kid to swim? Surely it's stupid not to, given how easy to come by such training is.

The way I see it, yeah, if it's a 1-year-old who toddles into a pool and drowns, someone should have been watching him and bears responsibility for failing in that duty. But an older child, or a teen, bears the responsibility for sneaking into a pool if that's how he got in to drown.

Likewise, if my car is stolen by someone and it is used to crash into someone and that person dies, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE. I'll go so far as saying that I'm not responsible EVEN IF I LEFT MY KEYS IN THE CAR. My responsibility would cover if I drove the car into someone. If someone commits a criminal act (stealing my car, unlicensed driver, etc.) that breaks the chain of liability. In law, that's a fact. You can argue "attractive nuisance" and all that insurance industry crap all you want (and that's why they require fences around pools), but it comes down to the choice made by the miscreant. There is no law against leaving keys in a car -- or even leaving it running on your driveway. Anyone who takes it and does harm with it bears all the responsibility for that harm. How do I know this? Because I know that absent a person to take my running car, it's just going to sit there on the driveway running harmlessly.


-azurefly
 
Azurefly,
you kinda missed my point, and rereading my post, I can see how i failed to correctly put into words how I feel. (My fault!) I am against attaching strict liability laws to everything. Everything depends. If the rich asian woman left a 3yo alone while she went shopping, it's her fault. If it was a 13yo she left at home, it's his/her own fault. More laws will not work. But for more laws to be made because of such instances, such as requiring all pool owners install X-type fence, X-type lock, X-type pool sensor, etc., is not the way it should work. I am not talking about things beyond an owners control or the owner being responible for things precipitated by an illegal act. I am against saying things were "accidental" or "not my fault". Someone is always at fault. Don't sue a gun company because a gun they made kills someone. Don't sue an auto maker for a hit & run. Don't sue a lock maker for a kid drowning in a pool. Hold the person that killed with a gun responsible, hold the driver of the hit & run responsible, hold the kid (or if it's too young too know any better, the parent) responsible for the drowning. I agree with what you said (most always do anyway). You missed my main point, and it's my fault. But it seems nowadays that everything is always someone else's fault that has nothing to do with the actual incident. The Tacoma Mall shooter was molested (not his fault that he shot people). Burglar falls down basement stairs and breaks leg (sue homeowners). Wreck car because of ice on road (sue the city for failing to maintain safe streets---never mind slowing down). It goes on and on. It's all about taking personal responsibility for your own actions, and people seem to lack the honor in such things today.
 
The road to Hell is paved with socialism

The reason the liberal/left and the democratic party want to take your guns, is that they have plans for even more socialism, even more taxation, even more racial quotas, even more restrictions on christians, even more interference between you and your children, even more government intrusion into every aspect of your life. To the point that they fear armed American citizens might use those arms.
I've been preaching that sermon for years - thanks Rebar, for backing me up on my message.

The Demosocialist antigun bigots know that Chairman Mao was right when he said, "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun." The socialists who run the Democratic party want ALL the political power; they want autocratic rule with zero accountability, therefore they want ALL
the guns.

If We The People do not have the means to resist - that would be guns, ammunition, magazines and reloading equipment - we cannot throw off the yoke of socialist autocratic rule.

That's exactly why they do not want us to have those things.
 
Back
Top