Kimber 1911--what does the II mean?

M

mach1.3

New member
I have heard that the II designation on a Kimber 1911 indicates the presence of a trigger(FP) blocking mechanism like was installed on the Series 80 Colts. A safety addition to prevent the gun from discharging if dropped.

My question should be---do the Kimbers without the II designation have the Series 70 style triggers which were better? These would be the Warrior, Desert Warrior, Master Carry or the Super Carry models. If this is true, do these pistols have smoother better trigger pulls than their brethren?
 
All new firearms require a trigger job due to frivolous U.S. law suits. Regardless of the brand.
Appears the "II" is about the trade marked finish on the slide that is supposedly self-lubing. Nothing to do with the trigger. Even the models without the II in the name have the KimPro II finish on the slide.
 
Not a trigger blocking mechanism -- a firing pin safety. The one Kimber uses in their "II" series pistols is different from the Series 80 system that Colt uses and that many other 1911 manufacturers have copied. The Kimber firing pin safety is released when you squeeze (depress) the grip safety. The Colt firing pin safety is released when you start to pull the trigger.
 
IIRC, Kimber uses the old Swartz firing pin block which is disengaged by the grip safety, rather than the Colt Series 80 system. I don't know why Colt did not use the Swartz system, which they had already used on production guns c. 1939. Unlike the Series 80 system, the Swartz system has absolutely no effect on the trigger pull or the sear engagement.

Jim
 
Kimber and S&W use the Swartz firing pin block.
All the other 1911 makers - those who use a mechanical firing pin block - use a variation on Series 80.

And . . . don't think that because a gun has the trigger-activated Series 80 system that it will have a bad trigger, or that any gun without Series 80 is automatically going to have a better trigger than one so equipped.
I have done back-to-back tests on my Series 80 guns, and other than a slightly heavier trigger pull weight (4oz), generally can't tell if the S80 bits are in the gun or not.
 
and half the time is flat out wrong.
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This is not one of those times :p

I agree entirely with Rick. My Colts are Series 80 guns and have triggers as nice as any Series 70 I've used.

Bart Noir
 
All new firearms require a trigger job due to frivolous U.S. law suits. Regardless of the brand.
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That's a vast overstatement. I've bought and/or tried 1911s from various manufacturers with good to excellent triggers out-of-the-box: Springfield Armory (some models), STI, Dan Wesson, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and others. Even Colt's FP block or Kimber's Swartz safety system are not mandated by law. A number of 1911 manufacturers use a titanium firing pin and heavier FP spring.
 
T. O'Heir said:
All new firearms require a trigger job due to frivolous U.S. law suits. Regardless of the brand.
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No. There are plenty of firearms sold in the US with excellent out-of-the-box triggers.

T. O'Heir said:
Appears the "II" is about the trade marked finish on the slide that is supposedly self-lubing.
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with the finish. Like others pointed out, it's referring to the Swartz firing pin block.
 
To me, a series 70 gun will have a little better feeling trigger vs a series 80 gun.

1/4 of a lb --- or 4 oz, does make a difference to me.

I view the series 80 concept of " a firing pin safety " ....as a made up solution to a problem that never existed ! I will not buy a series 80 gun....
 
I view the series 80 concept of " a firing pin safety " ....as a made up solution to a problem that never existed !
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I DO highly value the firing pin safety in my Kimber Eclipse, but I wouldn't want it to be trigger-controlled. Mine is grip-lever-controlled (Kimber's Series II, Swarz-like), and it has no effect on trigger feel at all.
 
As said, the Kimber II has a firing pin obstruction very like the 1930s Colt-Swartz. The SW1911's also operates off the grip safety but the linkage is different. Their trigger pulls are not affected by that setup even to the small extent of a properly adjusted Series 80.

They ARE subject to a condition in which the grip safety can clear the trigger before it disengages the firing pin block. Click. This is aggravated by the modern fad of high hand hole beavertail grip safeties which put a lot of hand pressure above the pivot point.

I don't guess anybody is interested in campaigning an original Colt-Swartz in USPSA or IDPA where a hasty grasp has led to trouble with Kimber II and SW to see if it is prone to the same hangup.
 
This is aggravated by the modern fad of high hand hole beavertail grip safeties which put a lot of hand pressure above the pivot point.
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When I first got my Kimber Eclipse, I tried the high grip that is currently recommended by most experts, and I did indeed sometimes get a blocked trigger. (As far as I can tell, my Eclipse DOES release the trigger very slightly AFTER the firing pin safety has been disengaged (which is as it should be)). I adopted a lower grip after that experience, and I've never had the problem since. But my grip lever (when in its resting state) protrudes far aft of the frame, and it releases the safeties with only a slight movement forward. The Eclipse also has a straight MSH, so that may also make compression of the grip easier and more positive.
 
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BigJimP said:
I view the series 80 concept of " a firing pin safety " ....as a made up solution to a problem that never existed ! I will not buy a series 80 gun....
Click to expand...
I used to feel the same way. Then I read the reports of the drop fire tests conducted by Walt Kuleck and Drake Oldham, and I corrected the error of my ways. All the 1911s in my current carry rotation are now Series 80 pistols, and they all have clean triggers that break at 4-1/2 to 4-3/4 pounds (which is right where I set them). My pre-Series 80 pistols are now relegated to range-only use.
 
Not to get too far afield, but the drop tests always include putting the gun in some sort of fixture, to ensure that it falls directly on the muzzle.
The test is not, "will the gun fire if dropped", but, "will the gun fire if dropped directly on the muzzle".
I met a guy who's been a gunsmith for 60 years, used to be Pistolsmithing editor for American Handgunner magazine, and he told me about the time he was going to conduct a "scientific" muzzle drop test. He invited his neighbor - who was a biologist or something - to help, to ensure that a "scientist" was involved, and started dropping.
He said that no matter how the gun was oriented when it was dropped, it never landed on the muzzle.
There are obviously instances of guns discharging when dropped, but I wonder if they're related to hammers bumping off the sear - which should be caught my the half-cock - rather than firing pins, per se?
The Navy did drop tests, in the '20s or '30s, and decided the gun had to be dropped twenty feet onto concrete - landing on the muzzle - to discharge.
 
I did my own drop tests with no fires. I even persisted until I got muzzle strikes.
I was not dropping the gun on concrete but I was dropping it from head height which is a greater impact than waist level or the usual test fixture.
 
Here's the California statute on drop safety requirements in full:
§ 31900. Drop safety requirement for handguns defined

Currentness

As used in this part, the “drop safety requirement for handguns” means that at the conclusion of the firing requirements for handguns described in Section 31905, the same certified independent testing laboratory shall subject the same three handguns of the make and model for which certification is sought, to the following test:

(a) A primed case (no powder or projectile) shall be inserted into the chamber. For a pistol, the slide shall be released, allowing it to move forward under the impetus of the recoil spring, and an empty magazine shall be inserted. For both a pistol and a revolver, the weapon shall be placed in a drop fixture capable of dropping the pistol from a drop height of 1m + 1cm (39.4 + 0.4 in.) onto the largest side of a slab of solid concrete having minimum dimensions of 7.5 x 15 x 15 cm (3 x 6 x 6 in.). The drop distance shall be measured from the lowermost portion of the weapon to the top surface of the slab. The weapon shall be dropped from a fixture and not from the hand. The weapon shall be dropped in the condition that it would be in if it were dropped from a hand (cocked with no manual safety applied). If the pistol is designed so that upon leaving the hand a “safety” is automatically applied by the pistol, this feature shall not be defeated. An approved drop fixture is a short piece of string with the weapon attached at one end and the other end held in an air vise until the drop is initiated.


(b) The following six drops shall be performed:

(1) Normal firing position with barrel horizontal.

(2) Upside down with barrel horizontal.

(3) On grip with barrel vertical.

(4) On muzzle with barrel vertical.

(5) On either side with barrel horizontal.

(6) If there is an exposed hammer or striker, on the rearmost point of that device, otherwise on the rearmost point of the weapon.


(c) The primer shall be examined for indentations after each drop. If indentations are present, a fresh primed case shall be used for the next drop.

(d) The handgun shall pass this test if each of the three test guns does not fire the primer.
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Cal. Penal Code § 31900

To my way of thinking, if a handgun can pass this test (including a drop directly on the muzzle and one directly on the hammer), then the gun is about as safe as practical.

The list of California approved guns is at http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp. There are several "Series 70" style 1911s approved for sale in that state (no firing pin block or other additional safety). Those include:
  • Dan Wesson - two models
  • Ed Brown - three full size models and one commander size model
  • Guncrafter - model 1
  • Armscor - Citadel
  • Les Baer - 19 models
  • Nighthawk - 22 models
  • Wilson Combat - 12 models
I may have missed one. Also, a number of 1911s without an added safety may be able to pass the test but the manufacturer may have determined it is not worth the time and money to get it approved.
 
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