Kicked off range for not having NFA paperwork...

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cptsplashdown

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I was at the Markham Park shooting range today in South Florida. I was shooting an MP-5SD (RDTS conversion) and after shooting it for some time was approached by a range officer who asked if I had my NFA paperwork. I said I did not. He told me I was violating federal law and that any police officer who asked me for my paperwork would arrest me on the spot. He told me I had to pack up and leave the range, which I did. I did not think this was correct, but I have had trouble finding any appropriate legal references to this issue. I know there are a lot of opinions out there, but I was hoping someone could give me a specific reference in the law that I could refer to in the case that this happens again. On the other hand, if the range officer was correct, I suppose I would like to know that as well. Anyone?
 
Sorry I can't help with your states laws. You might post in the Laws section here. In WA you have to have a trust set up to purchase a supressor.
 
Sorry, maybe I'm not being clear on my question. This is a legally owned and registered (SBR and Suppressor) firearm, and I have all applicable documentation. My question is whether or not I am legally required to have this documentation with me when I am at the range with the weapon. In other words, was the range master correct in telling me that I was violating federal law by not having the BATF paperwork with me at the range, or was he just on a power trip disseminating mis-information?
 
I'm sure theres gotta be someone floating around here that knows. If he was power tripping I hope you go back and give him an earfull. Good luck. :)
 
You are only required by federal law to show it to an ATF agent. That said, I'd still bring a copy whenever I took it somewhere, lest I end up in jail by some cop unfamiliar with the laws...
 
A local cop couldn't arrest you for it, an ATF agent would have to. I'm not really sure what can happen if an ATF agent comes knocking and you can't produce the necessary documents (that you do possess). There's probably some measure of "Innocent until proven guilty."

I have heard of people making miniature certified copies of their tax stamps and keeping them with their NFA items to prevent anybody on their high horse from going on a power trip and making the range trip a PITA (like the one you experienced).
 
I understand that it would be easier on me to carry at least a copy of these papers with me in order to keep the wolves at bay, but my question is really more about what the law actually requires, not what would be easiest for me. I would like to know if this is a legal requirement or not (having the paperwork with the weapon, vice simply keeping it safe at home.) I have heard that the tax stamp on the form makes it a tax document and as such these documents are subject to privacy laws which would preclude any law enforcement officer from demanding said document without a warrant or probable cause... In any case I was hoping for a legally definitive answer from someone who really knows the NFA inside and out...
 
well, since it got closed on the other side.....


This is the closest I could find with a quick search....

The link is here...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm

CHAPTER 12. RECORDKEEPING
Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm
registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of
registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or
investigator, upon request.184 Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its
maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing
registration of a firearm to a transferee.


Most of this all deals with federal law and the ATF. You may or may not be required by your states laws to provide the same info, but I dont know, you'll have to look at that end with your state.

The range is probably more concerned with their liability than anything else. From experience, many havent any idea as to what is or isnt legal, but it is their range, so you have to choose what you want to do. Many if not most ranges these days, wont even allow them on the range, which can be frustrating, especially when the reasons they give are total BS and incorrect. Insurance also has a lot to do with it. Oh well, such is life for a tax stamp holder in the world of know it alls. :)
 
Just to add to this discussion, cptsplashdown inadvertently opened three discussions in separate forums. I'd like to bring them here, but the time tags on the posts would mingle those discussions here and nonsense might result, So, instead, I give you the links to those other discussions, which have been closed, but remain in view:

Law & Civil Rights

General Discussion
 
I understand that it would be easier on me to carry at least a copy of these papers with me in order to keep the wolves at bay, but my question is really more about what the law actually requires, not what would be easiest for me. I would like to know if this is a legal requirement or not (having the paperwork with the weapon, vice simply keeping it safe at home.) I have heard that the tax stamp on the form makes it a tax document and as such these documents are subject to privacy laws which would preclude any law enforcement officer from demanding said document without a warrant or probable cause... In any case I was hoping for a legally definitive answer from someone who really knows the NFA inside and out...
Click to expand...

Do you want to be technically in the right or do you want to be shooting?
 
Frankly, I would rather be at a range where the people respect the law and my second and fourth amendment rights. I can always find a place to shoot, and I won't tolerate certain behavior just to get in a session at the range. So I guess I would rather be right.
 
Roger that Bud, sorry for the multiple postings, my first time on the site and it was suggested by another member to try multiple forums to increase the potential of reaching a successful responder. Won't happen again.
 
Bill, how can a local cop arrest me if I'm not breaking the law? Of course I understand that he could arrest me for spitting on the sidewalk, but really, are you saying that you believe it is in fact a violation of federal law to have a properly registered NFA firearm (SBR, Suppressor) at the range but not have the registration forms with you? That was my original question, and I appreciate AK for posting the link which I will be reading asap. Cheers man.
 
Being a LEO who deals with these types of firearms on an infrequent basis, I would say that the burden of proof is on you to prove that the guns are legal, not the officer. NFA weapons are always registered with the ATF and maybe the police department where (and if) you had the head LEO sign off on it, but other jurisdictions won't have access to the info right away. Every short barrelled weapon or homemade silencer I have ever dealt with has been illegal, but the suspect will claim they didn't know or have the paperwork at home. I have seen people with registered NFA weapons "lend" them to their friends for extended periods of time, which we know you cannot do. I have even seen fake NFA paperwork for an unmarked auto sear. But the suspects usually have no idea how the NFA process works, where a legitimate person knows the process very well. Most states have laws outlawing NFA weapons without federal approval (ie tax stamps), so an officer does have the duty to fully investigate. Basically my point is that just saying you have the paperwork won't work in most cases. If you were an officer, would you like to be known as the guy who got duped into letting a "dangerous" silenced weapon walk when in fact it turned out to be illegal?

My suggestion to you would be to have a copy of your paperwork handy. In reality, an officer could arrest you for not having it, but could very easily just impound the weapon and hold it until the paperwork is presented. It took alot of effort to get the weapon, don't risk it by not having a simple piece of paper saying its OK.
 
Have a color copy, front/back of your form 4. Keep it with the gun.

Technically only an ATF agent has the authority to hassle you over your NFA item but that won't stop cops and rangemasters.

Keep a copy with the gun.

In WA you have to have a trust set up to purchase a supressor.
Click to expand...
Not true. If a local CLEO won't sign for a suppressor you will need a trust. Unfortunately, while it is legal to own a suppressor in Washington, it is not legal to put it on a gun...
 
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