Kesselrings Losing FFL

T

TheBigO

New member
I have not been on the forum in awhile but according to Kesselring's Facebook page they are having to surrender their FFL sometime in October of this year. They are selling inventory at a discount.

I understand that they will try to continue to do business as a sporting goods store not selling firearms however I personally don't think that they will be able to make it. I was not a huge fan of Kesselrings however they are a local institution when it comes to firearms and it makes me sad to see a store like this lose its FFL.

I do not know the reason they are having to surrender their FFL and wont go spreading rumors on the matter, I am sure that will follow here. What I do wonder is how a business like this that has been operating for so long screwed up to get it yanked from them like this.
 
All we can do is speculate, unless someone wants to file a FOIA request. According to Kesselrings, part of the deal with the ATF was not discussing the circumstances. I'm not sure if I buy that, but it's obvious they're not talking.

This is a good reminder to FFL's that the BATFE is out there conducting inspections, and that even the smallest, most seemingly insignificant violations can have consequences.
 
In order to buy and sell firearms as a business, you must have an FFL. If you are going to repair firearms as a business, you must have an FFL. As far as I know, the same thing applies to ammunition.
 
sc928porsche In order to buy and sell firearms as a business, you must have an FFL. If you are going to repair firearms as a business, you must have an FFL. As far as I know, the same thing applies to ammunition.
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No license is required to sell ammunition. (an 06 or 07 is required if you manufacture and sell)
 
Here's an update. The Seattle Times posted a story recently on the closing of the shop. For some highlights,

  • Nearly 2500 missing guns/paperwork
  • at least 78 occurrences of not confirming buyer identity
  • At least twice Having 10 or more short "Time to Crime" guns in a year - an ATF red flag, though their sales volume may break that paradigm at least somewhat
 
Yep, and in the week following last Sunday's hit piece on Kesselring's, they have published several editorials and letters decrying the lax laws of the country. Yesterday, the resident idiot columnist called for the repeal of the Second Amendment, citing Kesselring's shop as one reason to do so.

What they have not mentioned : of the 2300 firearms not 'accounted' for, over 1000 were found last year by contacting the employees of the store. Clearly, there was a security problem there not associated with selling guns without papers, they were walking out the back door.

10 or more Time to Crime guns, somewhat meaningless when your sales volume is a million dollars monthly. Also, a crime getting your gun shop on the list could be a legal purchase being carried without a permit.

There's no excuse for lax paperwork, but the alleged crime problem associated with over 2000 guns doesn't exist, except as a very miniscule matter. There are no gangs of criminals driving around with "Armed by Kesselring's Gun Shop' painted on their hoopties
 
What they have not mentioned : of the 2300 firearms not 'accounted' for, over 1000 were found last year by contacting the employees of the store.
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OK, but where were those 1000 weapons when the inspection took place, and where were they miraculously "found?"

Even assuming those weren't the problem, that still leaves 1300 other guns unaccounted for.
 
They weren't in the store, Tom, that's the reason they were not accounted for. And, 2300 less 1000 does indeed leave 1300. So much for grasp of the obvious. As I mentioned, or at least implied, the store had a management problem. They didn't have a computer until the late 1990's, and even today a lot of the records are laying around the store on sheets of writing paper. It's a free country, they don't have to run things to suit the other guy.

The point is, the gigantic potential crime problem being bandied about by the media does not exist. Those 1300, or 2300, weapons are not being recovered at crime scenes. The ATF is aware of what guns came in to the store from the purchase orders and manifests.

As to the fact that there are no 4473 forms for 2300 guns. Welcome to pre-1968 America. Remember that? It used to be the country we had until we collectively decided everyone in it was a potential mass murderer.

So now we're all in an uproar over 4473 forms and the law being the law. Billions of dollars wasted on tracking gun sales to millions of law-abiding citizens for no public benefit whatsoever. Sound familiar? NSA telephone records, maybe?

I'm not the only citizen out there who has been signing ammo purchase books, signing forms under threat of perjury and ruinous fines, waiting three or ten days to pick up a gun I own the moment I pay for it, notifying sheriff departments if I buy two old surplus rifles on the same day, or submitting to redundant background checks each and every time I purchase a firearm, or renew a collector's license, or just being on the list of pistol permitees swept for felonies every Monday morning, for years and years, nearly 50 years now since all us gun owners became associated with Lee Harvey Oswald, and for what?

Nothing, that's what. No public benefit I can see that can hold a candle to the authoritarian mistrust of honest citizens, millions of hours spent filling out and handling intrusive interrogatory forms, and an expensive bureaucracy to oversee it all.

True, any one of us could have run Kesselring's records-keeping and done a better job of it, and been in full compliance with the laws, yada yada yada. The point is, however, there is no reason to be in compliance with the law, it's meaningless bureaucratic drivel. A waste of time and effort.

Now, a local business that generated over a million dollars in sales per month, and employed a dozen people, is probably going to go under in a year or two, all because they were found wanting on the altar of bureaucracy.
 
It's a free country, they don't have to run things to suit the other guy
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When the other guy says you will keep track of your records and know where the guns went, they kind of do have to run things to suit the other guy. The article even admits to implies that nobody thinks all the missing guns are crime guns, most people think they just didn't keep records worth a crap.

Heck, they even point out that just before the action ATF combed over the stuff for sale and found something like 17 of the missing up for auction. So even after the ATF spend who knows how many man hours of how many agents sorting out what they could during an inspection, it was so screwed up they missed ~17 that were in the stock room.
 
The point is, however, there is no reason to be in compliance with the law, it's meaningless bureaucratic drivel.
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Strongly disagree (along with a lot of your other points).

Its the law. You must be compliant. If you don't like it, there is a process to have it changed. But you don't get to pick and choose which laws you will follow without there being consequences. Like getting shut down by the ATF.
 
kilimanjaro .... even today a lot of the records are laying around the store on sheets of writing paper.
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Keeping a bound book is a forty six year old federal requirement. Keeping even a paper bound book isn't rocket science.


It's a free country, they don't have to run things to suit the other guy.
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"It's a free country"? Sorry, but no one forced them to get their FFL. When they applied and at every renewal they agreed to abide by federal law and ATF regulations...........so yeah they DO have to run things to suit the other guy.;)



The point is, the gigantic potential crime problem being bandied about by the media does not exist. Those 1300, or 2300, weapons are not being recovered at crime scenes. The ATF is aware of what guns came in to the store from the purchase orders and manifests.
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Nonsense. If the store doesn't know where the guns are how the heck do YOU?




As to the fact that there are no 4473 forms for 2300 guns. Welcome to pre-1968 America. Remember that? It used to be the country we had until we collectively decided everyone in it was a potential mass murderer.
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Uh..........what?:rolleyes:





I'm not the only citizen out there who has been signing ammo purchase books,
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Not federal law, blame your state, not ATF.


notifying sheriff departments if I buy two old surplus rifles on the same day
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Not federal law, blame your state, not ATF.

just being on the list of pistol permitees swept for felonies every Monday morning
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Not federal law, blame your state, not ATF.



The point is, however, there is no reason to be in compliance with the law, it's meaningless bureaucratic drivel.
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Ummm, yeah.:rolleyes:




Now, a local business that generated over a million dollars in sales per month, and employed a dozen people, is probably going to go under in a year or two, all because they were found wanting on the altar of bureaucracy.
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If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Your argument is the same as those who say illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay because they contribute to the economy.
 
If even half of what is reported in The Latest Article is true, they should have been shut down eight years ago.

As is shown by the high-decibel-hang-every-gundealer/gunowner editorials, they have put all gunshops at risk.
Incredible....
 
And, 2300 less 1000 does indeed leave 1300. So much for grasp of the obvious.
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Yep, call me Captain Obvious. I'm like Sean Connery in his Zardoz costume. ;)

If a respectable shop so much as thinks they've got one gun missing, they circle the jets and scramble the wagons. That's not something they want to have to report. Not being able to account for 1000? At what point do they start considering their accounting methods to be problematic?

They didn't have a computer until the late 1990's, and even today a lot of the records are laying around the store on sheets of writing paper.
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Not having a computer is irrelevant. There are well-known best practices for handling and organizing both the bound books and the 4473's. Sheets of paper laying about the store doesn't qualify.

It's a free country, they don't have to run things to suit the other guy.
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If they want to keep their license, they have to run things to suit the ATF. They're seeing the consequences of failing to do so. I have no sympathy. This goes beyond a few oopsies. This is willful neglect.

Those 1300, or 2300, weapons are not being recovered at crime scenes. The ATF is aware of what guns came in to the store from the purchase orders and manifests.
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Not yet, they aren't. But since nobody seems to know where they are, that could change. If they were letting employees remove guns from the premises without documentation, who knows how they were being disposed?

Welcome to pre-1968 America. Remember that? It used to be the country we had until we collectively decided everyone in it was a potential mass murderer.
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Nope, because I wasn't around. Apparently I missed out on a beatific and halcyon time of rampant smelly hippie drug abuse, racism, civil unrest, and war. Also, the Doors. No thanks.

Now, a local business that generated over a million dollars in sales per month, and employed a dozen people, is probably going to go under in a year or two, all because they were found wanting on the altar of bureaucracy.
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They weren't set up; they were utterly irresponsible. They failed to follow the rules of their license, which to tell the truth, really aren't that hard.

I'm sorry you find the rules to be offensive, but until they get changed, that's what we deal with.
 
1300 guns "lost"??

If that's since 1968, that's only about 28 a year...

... Sportsman's Warehouse, as a whole, "misplaces" about the same number in a year's time.

A good number of "lost" guns are directly attributable to poor record keeping, but I bet every big company legitimately loses a few every year and covers it up instead of reporting it.
 
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At 14 million a year in profits for an average cost of 500 a gun, that's 28000 guns sold a year. If your car dealership got one in 1000 people arrested because they reported cars as stolen instead of sold, would that be a problem? If you want to talk about small numbers, sure only about 4 people out of 100,000 get killed by guns. When you start moving the decimal place, you start getting orders of magnitude.

And it's not 1300 guns lost. It's near 2500. Those other 1000 or so were found after the ATF "inspected" and cleaned up the records of the place doing it FOR the shop. Had they just called them up on a crime gun trace, those other 1000 were still "lost". Let's not give the shop credit for the records cleanup done FOR them, not BY them.

but I bet every big company legitimately loses a few every year and covers it up instead of reporting it.
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Only if they're colossally stupid. They get in far more trouble covering it up than to do reporting it. Reporting it appears to be the next best thing to a get out of jail free card.
 
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