Keltec P11 or Beretta Tomcat for Concealed Carry Weapon
- Thread starter Bigbucks
- Start date
Normally, I've shyed away from the Kel-Tech, because even the folks on here who love theirs have to give them a lot of TLC, trips back to the factory, etc.
Given a choice between a .32 and a 9mm, I'm going with the bigger caliber. Now, if you said P32/Tomcat.... well, I'd probably still say Kel-Tech. I may have to own a P32 myself sometime soon.
Recently I was choosing between a Kel-Tech P11 and a Kahr P9... the Kahr won, and I haven't regretted it once!
Given a choice between a .32 and a 9mm, I'm going with the bigger caliber. Now, if you said P32/Tomcat.... well, I'd probably still say Kel-Tech. I may have to own a P32 myself sometime soon.
Recently I was choosing between a Kel-Tech P11 and a Kahr P9... the Kahr won, and I haven't regretted it once!
Ragin Cajun
New member
I have all three.
The Tom Cat will never be my carry piece. The P-11 and P-32 ARE.
Enough said?
The Tom Cat will never be my carry piece. The P-11 and P-32 ARE.
Enough said?
For a first pocket carry gun would you suggest the P11 or P32?? I like the P11 myself because of the conversion kit available to get to 40 SW plus I like 9mm.
I have a SIG 226 9mm...But it is way too bulky for a concealed carry.
Thx,
Phil K.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragin Cajun:
I have all three.
The Tom Cat will never be my carry piece. The P-11 and P-32 ARE.
Enough said?[/quote]
I have a SIG 226 9mm...But it is way too bulky for a concealed carry.
Thx,
Phil K.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragin Cajun:
I have all three.
The Tom Cat will never be my carry piece. The P-11 and P-32 ARE.
Enough said?[/quote]
Walt Sherrill
New member
I've had two Tomcats -- the second came after the first was replaced under warranty. After many repairs, I got it fixed again, and traded it in on a Kel-Tec P11.
The P-11 isn't really a pocket gun, but you CAN carry it that way if you are big and have big pockets. But get a pocket holster!
The P-11 is a much better gun than the Tomcat, and most of the tales about unreliability with the P-11 is residue from the early years. They've made great leaps in quality control in the last couple of years.
I "fluffed and buffed" mine following the instructions ont the WWW.KTOG.ORG (Kel-Tec Owners Group) website and it has never missed a lick in thousands of rounds.
If your choice is between the two, then its a real no-brainer.
(That said, the P-11 is a difficult gun to shoot well; its easy to shoot accurately, it easy to shoot fast; its hard to shoot fast and accurately. You'll need to practice a LOT.)
S&W '59 series (15 round) mags will work in the P-11, and you can get a small plastic spacer from Kel-Tec that makes the longer mag, in effect, a grip extension.
I much prefer the 9mm round to the .32 acp.
(All of this praise for the P-11 is offset by the fact that I've put mine in the gun safe and now carry a Star Firestar Plus [alloy frame]. Its about the same size, about 8 oz heavier, can't be carried in a pocket, but is much, much easier to shoot well, quickly. I picked mine up in a Pawn shop in like-new condition for $129. I've even had top time in a local IPDA match with it -- something I couldn't come close to doing with the P-11.) The P-11 will eventually be sold or traded. But its still a darned good gun.
The P-11 isn't really a pocket gun, but you CAN carry it that way if you are big and have big pockets. But get a pocket holster!
The P-11 is a much better gun than the Tomcat, and most of the tales about unreliability with the P-11 is residue from the early years. They've made great leaps in quality control in the last couple of years.
I "fluffed and buffed" mine following the instructions ont the WWW.KTOG.ORG (Kel-Tec Owners Group) website and it has never missed a lick in thousands of rounds.
If your choice is between the two, then its a real no-brainer.
(That said, the P-11 is a difficult gun to shoot well; its easy to shoot accurately, it easy to shoot fast; its hard to shoot fast and accurately. You'll need to practice a LOT.)
S&W '59 series (15 round) mags will work in the P-11, and you can get a small plastic spacer from Kel-Tec that makes the longer mag, in effect, a grip extension.
I much prefer the 9mm round to the .32 acp.
(All of this praise for the P-11 is offset by the fact that I've put mine in the gun safe and now carry a Star Firestar Plus [alloy frame]. Its about the same size, about 8 oz heavier, can't be carried in a pocket, but is much, much easier to shoot well, quickly. I picked mine up in a Pawn shop in like-new condition for $129. I've even had top time in a local IPDA match with it -- something I couldn't come close to doing with the P-11.) The P-11 will eventually be sold or traded. But its still a darned good gun.
I have a P-11 that I'm very pleased with. A while back I went to a local gunshop with the intention of buying a Tomcat. As I was looking it over, it dawned on me that the
Tomcat didn't seem to be much smaller than a P-11. Asked to see a P-11 from the case and compared the two side by side. The Tomcat was only slightly smaller. I decided not to buy the Tomcat because it made little sense to me to buy a less powerful gun in a package roughly the same size as the Kel-Tec. Now, if I could get my hands on a P-32, that might be a different story
Tomcat didn't seem to be much smaller than a P-11. Asked to see a P-11 from the case and compared the two side by side. The Tomcat was only slightly smaller. I decided not to buy the Tomcat because it made little sense to me to buy a less powerful gun in a package roughly the same size as the Kel-Tec. Now, if I could get my hands on a P-32, that might be a different story
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Onslaught:
Recently I was choosing between a Kel-Tech P11 and a Kahr P9... the Kahr won, and I haven't regretted it once![/quote]
Same here, exactly. P9 is a wonderful tool whereas my Keltec P11 kept ejecting into my face. P9 has a better trigger and half the recoil of the P11.
Tomcat just isn't what I consider a reliable gun though some folks have lucked out. I would suggest a Colt Mustang over it, or any humber of older .32/.380 pistols.
Recently I was choosing between a Kel-Tech P11 and a Kahr P9... the Kahr won, and I haven't regretted it once![/quote]
Same here, exactly. P9 is a wonderful tool whereas my Keltec P11 kept ejecting into my face. P9 has a better trigger and half the recoil of the P11.
Tomcat just isn't what I consider a reliable gun though some folks have lucked out. I would suggest a Colt Mustang over it, or any humber of older .32/.380 pistols.
MrMisanthrope
New member
Tried em' all. I rust anything that isn't 100% stainless, esp. if it's in a pocket.
I like thin. I like small. My Primary bulky is a slenderized 1911 Commanding Officer... BUT for when .45 is just too much...
NAA Guardian - .32 ACP, 6+1 DAO, (I use Fiocci SJHP... 1100fps)
Stainless only. Fits in a wallet. Literally. Tritium novak's available.
Basically a Seecamp at less than 1/2 the price.
100% Lifetime repair/replace - even if you buy it used/undocumented.
Best Backup/swim-suit primary I've ever hidden in the palm of my hand... in broad daylight. (BTW Hedley makes an EXCELLENT back-pocket holster for this thing...works in spandex biking shorts even.)
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_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________
[This message has been edited by MrMisanthrope (edited October 09, 2000).]
I like thin. I like small. My Primary bulky is a slenderized 1911 Commanding Officer... BUT for when .45 is just too much...
NAA Guardian - .32 ACP, 6+1 DAO, (I use Fiocci SJHP... 1100fps)
Stainless only. Fits in a wallet. Literally. Tritium novak's available.
Basically a Seecamp at less than 1/2 the price.
100% Lifetime repair/replace - even if you buy it used/undocumented.
Best Backup/swim-suit primary I've ever hidden in the palm of my hand... in broad daylight. (BTW Hedley makes an EXCELLENT back-pocket holster for this thing...works in spandex biking shorts even.)
------------------
_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________
[This message has been edited by MrMisanthrope (edited October 09, 2000).]
Walt Sherrill
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
Same here, exactly. P9 is a wonderful tool whereas my Keltec P11 kept ejecting into my face. P9 has a better trigger and half the recoil of the P11.[/quote]
I think the Kahr is a superior weapon, but much heavier (and, because of that, less concealable: drags down belt or pocket), and much more expensive.
If the money isn't a problem, and you've got a good IWB holster, I'd go Kahr, too.
I'm just not sure that a .32 acp round is sufficient for self-defense. (Stopping power reports give it fair marks, but I sometimes wonder about those reports.)
Same here, exactly. P9 is a wonderful tool whereas my Keltec P11 kept ejecting into my face. P9 has a better trigger and half the recoil of the P11.[/quote]
I think the Kahr is a superior weapon, but much heavier (and, because of that, less concealable: drags down belt or pocket), and much more expensive.
If the money isn't a problem, and you've got a good IWB holster, I'd go Kahr, too.
I'm just not sure that a .32 acp round is sufficient for self-defense. (Stopping power reports give it fair marks, but I sometimes wonder about those reports.)
David Scott
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrMisanthrope:
NAA Guardian - .32 ACP, 6+1 DAO, (I use Fiocci SJHP... 1100fps)
Stainless only. Fits in a wallet. Literally. Tritium novak's available.
[/quote]
The Combat Handguns Buyer's Guide 2000 has a test of an NAA Guardian, and on Page 52 they list the following chronograph readings for 60 grain hollow points:
CCI Gold Dot 786 fps
Hornady XTP 803 fps
Fiocchi SJHP 946 fps
Winchester Silvrtip 789 fps
The Fiocchi is the fastest, but what's your secret to getting 1,100 fps out of it? That extra 150 fps makes a big difference.
NAA Guardian - .32 ACP, 6+1 DAO, (I use Fiocci SJHP... 1100fps)
Stainless only. Fits in a wallet. Literally. Tritium novak's available.
[/quote]
The Combat Handguns Buyer's Guide 2000 has a test of an NAA Guardian, and on Page 52 they list the following chronograph readings for 60 grain hollow points:
CCI Gold Dot 786 fps
Hornady XTP 803 fps
Fiocchi SJHP 946 fps
Winchester Silvrtip 789 fps
The Fiocchi is the fastest, but what's your secret to getting 1,100 fps out of it? That extra 150 fps makes a big difference.
Kahr P9 is expensive and bigger than the Tomcat but not much heavier. I don't question the liking of smallish guns, just the choice of the Tomcat. Then again, Sig232 is a handful of recoil (still a better gun IMO) and Colt Mustangs are getting pricy...but both offer a better round and generally better reliability.
I'd almost take Llama Micromax .380 or their .32 1911-look-alike over the Tomcat but YMMV.
I'd almost take Llama Micromax .380 or their .32 1911-look-alike over the Tomcat but YMMV.
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
My Tomcat has been my "out the door right now" gun for about 3 years. Prior to that I carried as a deep concealment backup gun for police patrol. It's been a great gun.
But if I had to do it all over again I'd probably get a KelTek P32 instead.
My advice? Chose the one that feels best in your hands. That's the one you'll shoot most accurately.
Good luck!
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
But if I had to do it all over again I'd probably get a KelTek P32 instead.
My advice? Chose the one that feels best in your hands. That's the one you'll shoot most accurately.
Good luck!
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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
GIT_SOME.45
New member
I swore that I would never use anything under a 9mm for Self Defense...( Yes, I own a chromed Kel-Tec P-11 with belt clip for Concealed Carry.)
But then I bought the Kel-Tec P-32, and have started to carry it almost EXCLUSIVELY...( go figure .?.)
It is the ONLY Locked breech .32 Auto in production today, all others are "blow back" operated...
Locked breech equals stronger action, more consistent reliability, and the ability to handle a +P round for which the Kel-Tec P-32 IS rated...( I know that as of yet they don`t make +P .32 Auto ammo yet, but only because previously made "blow back" designs would not handle the +P round.)
It is SOOO light and thin, that even with the belt clip attached it is almost "invisible".
I have come to learn to appreciate it very much, and it is my ALWAYS gun..
JMHO.
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SHOOT,COMMUNICATE AND MOVE OUT !
But then I bought the Kel-Tec P-32, and have started to carry it almost EXCLUSIVELY...( go figure .?.)
It is the ONLY Locked breech .32 Auto in production today, all others are "blow back" operated...
Locked breech equals stronger action, more consistent reliability, and the ability to handle a +P round for which the Kel-Tec P-32 IS rated...( I know that as of yet they don`t make +P .32 Auto ammo yet, but only because previously made "blow back" designs would not handle the +P round.)
It is SOOO light and thin, that even with the belt clip attached it is almost "invisible".
I have come to learn to appreciate it very much, and it is my ALWAYS gun..
JMHO.
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SHOOT,COMMUNICATE AND MOVE OUT !
I recently bought the P11. I also ordered the clip and put it on. I was skeptical at first but I shot it the other day for the first time. I have to say it may be the best $235 I've spent in a while. Mind you, its bare bones/nothing fancy/kind of rough, but its light-weight and sits deep in the waist band with the clip--after a while you forget its there. And best of all its 11 rounds of 9mm. I was very pleased with how it shoots. I may end up having some of the problems that I've heard and read about, but until then I'll use it. I just hope the "until then" isn't a life/death situation, but that can happen with any gun. That's why you carry a back-up, such as the P32.
MrMisanthrope
New member
RE: The Fiocchi is the fastest, but what's your secret to getting 1,100 fps out of it? That extra 150 fps makes a big difference.
Do you handload? Most handloaders know that they have to back off their max pressure loads for use in HOT weather.
The folks who test loads for magazines do it "cold"... i.e. fresh ammo, cold gun. The powder in my ammo sits at a nice 98.6 (+/-) fourteen hours a day... (only explanation I can come up with)
As for round viability, at 15 ft I get over 12" penetration in saturated phonebooks, virtually no weight loss, and good expansion.
Besides - Fiocchi is 1/2 the price of the "premium" brands you listed. Buy a case and practice with what you carry... I do.
http://www.naaminis.com/vel32new.html shows NAA's testing done at 78deg / 4600 ft el.
Fiocchi 60 gr. SJHP
1st 2nd Avg. 1st 2nd Avg. 2 Gun Avg.
High 972 988 980 993 933 963 972
Low 902 888 895 874 880 877 886
Mean 943 924 934 935 913 924 929
SD 26 37 32 43 23 33 32
Nothing else comes close... esp. for the money. Carry your buddy close to the skin and get a few extra fps. That's what guardians are for anyway.
------------------
_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________
Do you handload? Most handloaders know that they have to back off their max pressure loads for use in HOT weather.
The folks who test loads for magazines do it "cold"... i.e. fresh ammo, cold gun. The powder in my ammo sits at a nice 98.6 (+/-) fourteen hours a day... (only explanation I can come up with)
As for round viability, at 15 ft I get over 12" penetration in saturated phonebooks, virtually no weight loss, and good expansion.
Besides - Fiocchi is 1/2 the price of the "premium" brands you listed. Buy a case and practice with what you carry... I do.
http://www.naaminis.com/vel32new.html shows NAA's testing done at 78deg / 4600 ft el.
Fiocchi 60 gr. SJHP
1st 2nd Avg. 1st 2nd Avg. 2 Gun Avg.
High 972 988 980 993 933 963 972
Low 902 888 895 874 880 877 886
Mean 943 924 934 935 913 924 929
SD 26 37 32 43 23 33 32
Nothing else comes close... esp. for the money. Carry your buddy close to the skin and get a few extra fps. That's what guardians are for anyway.
------------------
_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________