K Frame Ammo

1

1972RedNeck

New member
I just bought a bunch of UMC 125 gr 357 mag because it was $0.23 a round. Advertised as 1450fps.

Am I fine to shoot this in my model 65 or should I just leave it for my L and N frames?
 
The issues with 125gr loads in K frames were solved long ago.

1450fps from what barrel??
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No idea. Box just says 1450 FPS.

What was done to solve the forcing cone issues related to fast, light bullets?
 
66-8 started using a ball detent to lock the crane rather than the traditional cylinder lockup that used the end of the ejector rod.

This allowed the use of a sleeved barrel and eliminated the flat, thin bottom of the original K frame forcing cone where the majority of failures occurred.

If it’s the new design, I would have no concerns with occasional use of full power 125’s, they are still the harshest loading generally found for a 357 Mag.
If it’s the original flat bottom style, I would proceed with caution, especially if it’s a nice older 19.
Just my opinion.
 
Guns are a wear item, have your fun with it! If the ammunition that you're shooting matches the marking on the gun have at it.

I shot lots of that stuff from a J frame and the Fireballs are beautiful, the concussion will drain your sinuses and The Recoil will awaken the palms of your hand. Where are you getting that loaded ammunition for 23 cents ??? Did you raid an estate? Starline cases cost 20 cents.
 
If it’s the new design, I would have no concerns with occasional use of full power 125’s, they are still the harshest loading generally found for a 357 Mag.
If it’s the original flat bottom style, I would proceed with caution, especially if it’s a nice older 19.
Just my opinion.
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It's a 65-6. Has the flat bottom forcing cone.
 
Guns are a wear item, have your fun with it! If the ammunition that you're shooting matches the marking on the gun have at it.

I shot lots of that stuff from a J frame and the Fireballs are beautiful, the concussion will drain your sinuses and The Recoil will awaken the palms of your hand. Where are you getting that loaded ammunition for 23 cents ??? Did you raid an estate? Starline cases cost 20 cents.
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Got an ammo seek alert yesterday. Most of the time when they are that cheap it's a typo, but the order went through and they sent me a receipt so we'll see what happens.

I have enough other 357s that my K Frame wouldn't have to see any light fast loads of it could be detrimental to it in any way. I have no problem with wear or even pushing max pressure, but if there is a known possible weak point, why push it?
 
I could be wrong but back when it was a request by some influential people, Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skeleton and certainly others, the intent of using the smaller lighter K frame Model 19 was so a police officer could practice with 38’s and use 357’s for business. It would also be less tiresome to carry all day.

Back then, S&W’s N frame Models 27 and 28 were a significant jump in weight and size.

When the midsize L frame came about it offered the strength to withstand a steady diet of magnums with the smaller grip of the K frame.
 
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My understanding, too. The number sometimes mentioned for M19 etc was 25% Magnums, 75% Specials.

Jeff Cooper said the .38/357 revolver was the WORST combination, it would lead you into not practicing with your service ammo, while an automatic requires full or near full power to function.
 
1972RedNeck said:
I just bought a bunch of UMC 125 gr 357 mag because it was $0.23 a round. Advertised as 1450fps.

Am I fine to shoot this in my model 65 or should I just leave it for my L and N frames?
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While it's important to practice SOME with full power loads........I'd stay away from the really hot 125 grain loads.

Why push it?

There are plenty of other powerful .357 loads that are perfectly safe in your good old S&W.

Touch off a few of your 125s just for fun now and then.

:)
 
I had a friend who was a cop for many years. His S&W 19 4" had to have the cylinder replaced twice from chambers being bulged from full power .357 loads. He retired years before the L frame came out. H lamented it wasn't avaliable when he was on the job.
 
When the midsize L frame came about it offered the strength to withstand a steady diet of magnums with the smaller grip of the K frame.
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And, exactly the same weight as the N frames with the same barrel length.

Changes in the design, alloys and heat treating essentially solved the issues with 125gr ammo by the mid 70s or so.

Yes, there were some issues with a FEW guns, over HALF A CENTURY AGO.

However it seems the myth just won't die, and for no good reason, people think the problem still persists today.

I did see a model 19 with a cracked forcing cone, one the owner positively blamed on the 125gr ammo. Seems that when he fired a round of that ammo, the gun cracked. Technically correct, but not the entire story.

That gun's barrel was heavily leaded, constricting it, and either the owner didn't know, or didn't care, and fired a hot jacketed round, and something broke. This was neither the fault of the gun nor the ammo, but entirely the fault of the user, neglecting to perform needed maintenance.
 
44 AMP said:
Changes in the design, alloys and heat treating essentially solved the issues with 125gr ammo by the mid 70s or so.

Yes, there were some issues with a FEW guns, over HALF A CENTURY AGO.

However it seems the myth just won't die, and for no good reason, people think the problem still persists today.
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The gun in the link I posted is a Model 65-8. They started making them in 2005. So much for your half-century comment.

Modern revolvers will still have that problem and not just S&Ws. Even beefier guns like Rugers will crack the forcing cone. A Google search will find them, according to the article. You might want to read it.
 
The gun in the link I posted is a Model 65-8. They started making them in 2005. So much for your half-century comment.
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I read it. One gun, bought used (so no history of what it had been through) broke after 1,000 rnds of mixed .38s, and .357 158s and 125gr loads.

Today I looked at a model 19 (no dash) made in 1960. The barrel has no flat spots on the forcing cone. Not cracked, either. Another one, a model 66 (no dash) made in 1970. No forcing cone cracks.

The fact that guns still sometimes break is reality. When the S&W k frames began failing at a higher than expected rate, S&W took steps to correct the problems. They did, and did it around a half century ago. The fact that sometimes, some guns still fail from time to time is accounted for,

Any gun can be wrecked by abuse, any forcing cone can be cracked , any other parts can be damaged, or destroyed by people who misuse them. It happens more often than you might think, and more than it gets written about.

Guns WEAR OUT when used enough. Sometimes parts break before they should, it does happen. Used guns, even those which look new are a crapshoot, unless you personally know their usage history.

Just shooting will wear guns out, and hotter high intensity ammo tends to do it sooner. Friend of mine got a brand new Model 66 and bought 5,000 rnds of Federal 125 gr JHP ammo to test it with. Advertised as 1450fps from a 4" barrel, checked with a chronograph, and that is what it did.

He got a bit over 4,100 rnds through it, and it went out of time. Sent back to S&W, they fixed it, and also said he had used up close to half the frame life.

Another fellow I know of was one of those "I know better than the books" type and trashed a K frame in his quest to get 1200 fps with a 180gr bullet from a 4". S&W fixed that one, too. Told him he had used up 80% of the frame life, and if he did it again, they would not fix it.

Guns don't last forever, even when treated right, if they get shot enough. Treated wrong, they don't last nearly as long.
 
44 AMP said:
I read it. One gun, bought used (so no history of what it had been through) broke after 1,000 rnds of mixed .38s, and .357 158s and 125gr loads.
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And it still contradicts your half-century comment.


44 AMP said:
However it seems the myth just won't die, and for no good reason, people think the problem still persists today.
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It's not a myth. The problem still persist today. Forcing cones still crack.
 
44 AMP,
"And, exactly the same weight as the N frames with the same barrel length."

L frame weight distribution was done for a reason, to increase muzzle heaviness.
Same as other S&W revolvers with their HB options, model 10 HB comes to mind.
Others came with a heavy barrel with no pencil barrel option, 29,57, 58, 19, etc.

44 AMP,
"Today I looked at a model 19 (no dash) made in 1960. The barrel has no flat spots on the forcing cone. Not cracked, either. Another one, a model 66 (no dash) made in 1970. No forcing cone cracks."

The FLAT SPOT, not "flat spots" is machined to allow the crane to have clearance to close. Lay a straight edge across the crane and ejector rod and see how thick of a feeler gauge you can insert, it won't be very thick, .002"-.005" maybe.

Current K Frames do not have this flat spot machined there, they also have a much thinner diameter ejector rod because of it not serving as a front lockup point any more.

Another advantage is because of it not being used as a lock point, is it can be made longer to help clear magnum cases when ejecting.

Pumpkin,
"Then why did S&W totally redesign the K frame barrel and front cylinder
lockup".

To add, isn't it interesting that the 686 has NOT had this barrel modification done?
Maybe because the forcing cone is round and substantial enough to withstand regular magnum ammo.
 
I have a few S&W revolvers J-K-N, I don’t keep Ls. To new to be of any interest. Same as most models after P&R was dropped. I have had a few of the newer models and will admit that they function and shoot ok. They keep going downhill on fit and finish. I took in a couple sleeved barrel 66s on trades and will not take anymore. It makes me rethink getting rid of pre lock models. They seem custom fit compared to new models.
 
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