K-31 Groups

M

Mosin-Marauder

New member
I shot my K-31 again today, was was trying to compare accuracy of my hand loads to GP11. I was expected Gp11 to win, but not by this much.

The GP11 group is in the top, circled. Measured 1 5/8". It's not good, but it's not bad either. The handloads (150 grain soft point over 45 grains of H4350 with CCI primers. It has never shot this bad. That's like a 4.5 inch pattern. I noticed there was black little dots in the bore before I shot. I swabbed that out with a bore snake. Then after I shot it was there again, I swabbed again and shot again, and it was there again. I've since swabbed it again. I was using two sandbags in front as a rest and used my hand to support the rear. I shot a second group the same way at a different target. Group closed up to 2.5. Can someone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong here? If anyone needs any more information I'd be glad to tell, I'd just like to figure out what's happening. I'm not too overly impressed with how this K-31 has performed at any degree. My Mosin shoots better at 75 yards than my K-31 does at 50 yards. I probably just need to practice more, but it's disheartening nevertheless.
thanks for any help you can provide.

-Mo.
 
Mo,
People have repeatedly tried to help you, and you don't listen.
You won't follow advice & instruction, you're ignoring both now.
What else do you want to be told & how many times do you want to be told the same stuff over & over & over?

When you work up a handload you first establish a zero & a baseline for the gun using good factory ammunition as your control.

You then choose a bullet, powder & primer combo. You then start at the low end of the charges shown in your manual. You typically build 20 or so loads in your beginning charge, then raise the powder charge by a tenth of a grain or so for another 20 rounds, and repeat till you get just below the max charge listed.

You fire 5-shot groups with each load, at 100 YARDS as previously discussed ad infinitum, and if you hold still & do your part you should notice one charge will give you the best accuracy of the bunch.

That's your working load, with that combination of components.

If it's not anywhere close to what the rifle does with factory stuff, you try another bullet or powder & repeat the process listed above.

It's pointless to ask what's happening.
Nobody knows what other powder weights you've tried, how you settled on this one (just arbitrarily grabbed one charge weight & decided to stop there), if this was the best you got out of a range of different powder charges, or how consistent YOU are or your reloading practices are.

You don't just grab one single powder charge for a given bullet weight & expect it to produce a rifle's best accuracy.
You try SEVERAL different charge weights, and if none work well compared to your control ammunition, you try another bullet or another powder.

It takes time, it takes repeated tries, and it takes patience. You are extremely short on patience.

You have every bit of advice & info you really need to work on loads for that rifle, between generic discussion here & what you've got in your loading manual.

Keep working on it. Just keep working on it.
Consistency!
100 yards!
Big black targets you can SEE AT 100 yards with iron sights.
Steady shooting position.
Trigger pull.

You've been told all this before.
You've also been told to quit obsessing over your little bore dots.
Just clean the gun after you shoot it, leave a VERY slight film of oil in the bore, run a clean patch through to remove the oil before shooting, and stop playing with your guns so much.

You've already stripped out a hole on your 10/22 by fiddling with it.
These things are not toys & do not need to be endlessly handled, endlessly cleaned, and endlessly tinkered with.
Denis
 
I picked this weight from 44 grains up to 49 grain as the 49 put too much stress on the cases. I'll do as you said at 100 yards and I'll work up charges slowly from now on. I'm getting some 100 yard targets for Christmas and my dad and I are going to work on my 100 yard range. I also got a pound of 4064 so I will work up from the bottom charge a tenth at a time from here on out. Also getting some 168 grain Sierra Match Kings so I'll try both and see which works the best with the 4064, not both at the same time though. I will establish a baseline like you said and I will shoot from a stable position. My dad has been using the sandbags for hunting so I've only had two to work with.

Thank you Denis, and sorry.

-Mo.
 
I typically change up 2 tenths at a time, you can save some powder & components that way & still see a useful difference in most progressions.

One tenth graduations would be more appropriate for dedicated bench rest people in a better rifle that might respond more to that low a change.

Denis
 
168 grain Sierra Match Kings -- right

4064 -- right, though I make 15 of each weight and I use 2 other powders
(3 in all) so as to get the most out of my time at the bench and to be
able to cross compare powders.
3 target boards; at 100, 200 and 300 yards
and I fire 5 of each (3 x 5=15) at each target
also quick clean the bbl between each 5 so they each have the same starting-off point.

whats been said varies a bit from my have-at-it but not by much

--I increase by .3 gr

I use a slight taper crimp to avoid settings from changing due to handling
and because neck tension may change as cases are reused

please note that a K-31 ( like a Swedish M96 ) is zeroed for 300 yards
not like the 100 yards most Americans think of as 'standard'.

you spreads may be cause the bullet at 100 yards has not fully settled down.

have you slugged your barrel?

my k-31 groups 3.5" at 300 yards and 2.5" at 100 yards. my hand-loads replicate PG-11. if all I was concerned with was 100 yards I'd be disappointed also.
 
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One of Mo's problems is that he can't standardize on distances. He shoots at 30 yards, 50 yards, 75 yards, 80 yards, and so on in posts & PMs.

He mentions 50 yards in connection with the targets above for the K.
Dunno if that means that's actually a 50-yard target displayed.

I'll occasionally use three tenth graduations if there's a large spread in a given powder range. It can work fine, too.
Denis
 
Okay, so graduate powder slowly,use a proper rest, 100 yards, visible bullseyes, got it.

I'll be using CCI #200 primers to start off.

Question, what sand bag and setup of said sand bags should I be using? I'm thinking about getting a set for just myself (Caldwell DeadShot front and rear bag set)

Input on that would be appreciated.

-Mo.
 
Mo a good front rest is essential, try a Caldwell, they make an inexpensive model. Also uncle buds bull bag works ok. For a rear bag (could do it for front as well), I used to take an old pair of jeans and cut the leg off. Sew the cuff and then fill with rice, sand or something else and sew the knee end. Cheap easy way to make a rear bag. If you're not shooting from a stable position, you're wasting time an ammo. As mentioned, pick a distance and stick with it, 100yds would be best, but anything equal to 50 or better will work. Benchmark or baseline is critical.
 
Mo's been told that last about standardizing distance & establishing baseline numerous times. It doesn't stick.
Same with shooting from a stable position, followed by posts about him shooting off trucks & (unsurprisingly) noting poor results.

He has the interest, but has a major problem with patience, assimilation, and focus.

If he can overcome those, he has a good chance of becoming a decent marksman.
Denis
 
You recall we've discussed black bulls, 100 yards, and your eyes numerous times before?

Find a solid black bull that you can see at 100 with irons. Very simple.
Eight or ten inch, whatever YOU can see, Mo.
And remember the 6 o-clock hold we also talked about numerous times.

As for bullet weight, if you want best correlation between the existing sights & actual point of impact, try to stay close to the bullet weight the gun was built to shoot in its military role.
Denis
 
Working up a load

I agree with the advice given.....with one exception....
That work up by changing the load one or two tenths and loading 15-20 at each level. Unnecessarily wasteful, time consuming and, in this day and age, expensive.
Loads for the Swiss cartridge range min to max between seven grains or 11 grains, depending on the propellant used.
Even with seven grains - that is 70 test increments (35 if you use 2 grain increments) Do the math....twenty rounds at each of 70 increment? 1400 test rounds? Nah. Ten rounds at each of 35 increments is still 350 cartridges. More than two pounds of powder and nearly $100 worth of bullets.
Load five rounds. Change up a full grain. Load another five rounds....etc...thirty five test rounds. Shoot carefully. Look for a trend. See a trend? Go a half grain below the trend and a half grain above. Load five at each. Shoot carefully.
If a person needs more than that to establish a trend at one level of another, they need to learn more about how to shoot before how to test.
 
The 168 SMK is going to be the closest you can get to the spitzer in the GP-11.
This should help- but don't be surprised if your best, still doesn't group better than the GP-11.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/pierre/data.html

How did you set your OAL? Some manuals- including my Sierra- list an OAL that's dangerously long, based upon the 7.5 x 55 long rifles, which had much longer throats than the K-31.

Far as load workup, I always use OCW to start- then fine tune including seating depth later.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-instructions/4529817134
 
20 rounds at 2/10 change-ups was given as a recommendation for Mo's specific situation.
I did not look up the charge range on that specific load to see what it spanned.

20 rounds was given for Mo in his situation because with his demonstrated lack of ability to remain consistent, I doubt two five-round groups each charge weight would be enough to tell him much. Four five-shot strings would be more valid FOR HIM.

20 shots each load would also be helping him work on the basics as he goes along, something he needs to do.
I do three 5-shot strings each test load myself, but I can shoot better than he can. Two 5-shot strings still doesn't leave me comfortable, three works better.

He could start halfway through the charge scale if he wants, which would save him some powder & bullets.

And you're right- Mo does need to learn more about how to shoot before testing, but he won't. We've tried, he doesn't have the patience.
Denis
 
I think I'm still going to start at the bottom most charge and work up froom there in .3 grain increments. Just to make sure I don't miss the good charge
 
Claude Clay, you're the first I know of to put a taper crimp on jacketed bullets. Why do you think that's necessary?

Mosin M., I would use 1 grain increments in charge weights then shoot 15-shot test groups. There's typically no real difference in accuracy in charge weights even a half grain apart; especially when testing sporting rifles at 200 yards or less.
 
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Okay, I checked and the lowest charge is 33.7 grains for 4064 with a 168 grain bullet. Seating depth is 2.890. Maximum Charge is 45.3.
 
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How bad would it be if I started halfway up? I figured it up and that would be a lot of bullets and powder I'd have to buy if I started at 33.7. And just working up to 40 grains It'd be $243.77(For Powder and bullets, if I loaded 20 rounds per .3 grain increment.), which is money I dont have to spend. :P
 
I gotta believe there is a known good load for k31, 42gr of 4064 for 308, 57gr of 4350 for 30-06, 47gr 4064 for M1... These are all pretty tried and proven. I don't load for 7.5 but there must be something out there that would be a good start.
 
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