K-31 Flyers

M

Mosin-Marauder

New member
Hello,

I frequently get a flyer or two with almost every group I shoot with this rifle. Like this.

these were both with the same load, 150 grain Hornady soft point flat base bullet over 45 grains of H4350 and a CCI #200 LRP. The top group was a six of clock hold at the bullseye at 50 yards and the bottom was a six o clock hold at the bottom of the paper at 50 yards. As you can see there is always a flier an inch or so away from the real "group". Is there anyway to remedy this or is it something me or my rifle is doing? It happens with every group I shoot.
Thanks, and happy Thanksgiving,
-Mo.
 
I might also add that when I look through the the bore with a bore like there are long streaks of this brownish/orange substance. Probably copper, but I'm not sure this has any affect in the flyer.
 
Hmmmmmmm

Which shot is it? Is it the first shot from a cold barrel and the others are warm barrel shots? Or other way around last shot as barrel is starting to get hot?
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I'm fairly cretain it's the first shot. I'd have to get out and shoot it again to see, but I only have two more rounds left and I'm saving those for hunting.
 
I would be willing to bet money that its not the rifle. You are probably flinching on one of the shots or jerking the trigger too much. If this is not the case I guess MAYBE a cold barrel first shot could be different than after the barrel is warm/hot. But practice your fundamentals and you could get rid of the flyers. Breath slowly and uniformly, center the front sight, focus on the target, slowly and precisely squeeze the trigger. A way to see if you are flinching is, have a buddy load your rifle with a snap cap somewhere in the mag. You shouldn't know its there so when you pull the trigger and nothing happens you will notice if you flinched or not
 
When you first obtained the rifle, did you give it a thorough cleaning with a copper remover to get a reliable baseline?

I do this with every rifle, especially milsurps... If I didn't, there's thousands of rounds worth of copper in the rifling. It should all be removed- then you have a baseline as to how many rounds (prox) you can expect to be able to shoot before the bore becomes copper fouled, accuracy drops off and needs to be cleaned out again.

That said (because you mentioned there is heavy visible copper in the bore), I agree that the issue of the pulled shot is likely shooter error.

A cold bore shot from a cleaned barrel can have a different POI if a layer of copper fouling needs to be laid down- but that's not your case here.
 
There are no fliers. Every round shot reflects all the variables in the system; rifle, ammo and shooter. Those wide shots reflects what happens when all the variables add up in one direction. If you shoot enough shots in a well aimed group, there'll be no 'fliers.' Fliers in the first few shots reflect the least accurate round early. Other times, it shows up later. Such is reality with few shot groups.

The exception is when you know the shot was fired when the rifle wasn't aimed right.
 
Ten shot groups; at least. I shoot at least 15 to 20. More shots means better statistical significance. At some point, the resources required may be more than one is willing to expend. That determines how many shots per group one's willing to use.
 
10 shots shouldn't be a problem. With the amount I shoot that rifle. I'm going to clean it with Barnes CR-10 and oil it well when I get home and degrease and grease the bolt.
 
As other members have stated, variations in your application of the fundamentals is the most likely factor in your groupings, but might I also suggest for target practice you pick up some surplus Swiss GP-11 Ammunition. I personally use it in my K-31 and it works phenomenally. I will tell you first hand that it is practically match grade ammo, non-corrosive, clean and has extremely consistent performance. Heck, that ammo was designed specifically for those old Swiss rifles! Here is a link to get you started, and of course you could always find a better deal elsewhere, but less than 50 cents a round seems quite alright in my book!

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-941
 
I have a K-31 that I've not started shooting yet... are the milsurp rounds listed in the Cheaper Than Dirt link, boxer primed, or are they Berdan primed ???

since I'll also be reloading, after I get going, I've been looking at PRVI ammo... but would have no issues buying the ammo in the link, if it were reloadable

to the OP... I also think you're not shooting enough rounds to determine "if" those are actually fliers
 
I once asked a ballistics engineer at Lake City arsenal in a conversation about a particular lot of M118 match ammo, what was the best way to measure the accuracy of a shooting system. His eloquent reply was to shoot enough shots in 3 or 4 groups such that they're all the same size within a few percentage points.

My comment was about having to shoot a few hundred shots per group to do that. He then said that's why they shoot that many shots testing rifle ammo of all types; not just the match stuff. They want near 100% confidence in the ammo's accuracy. Lesser levels mean there'll be "fliers" that most people don't want to be counted in the accuracy their stuff produces. Even though Lake City Army Ammo Plant uses mean radius of those few hundred shot groups to asses accuracy, the furthest shots from group center are typically 4 to 5 times that far from groups center.

Check out benchrest records and note the sizes of the smallest 5-shot groups compared to the average size (aggregate dimension) of several groups. The largest group of those several ones is typically twice the size of the average; sometimes more.
 
MagnumWheelMan; They are Berdan primed. I guess that's the downside to the GP-11 Ammo :( However, and this is a rumor and not from personal experience, I was told that the brass on the GP-11 ammo is really high quality and that there are folks that will convert them to boxer primers. I do not know the validity to this, but it might be worth some research. I will add that the brass on these rounds does look extraordinary compared to any other mil-surp that I have seen.

As far as someone that doesn't have the capability to reload, I personally feel that the GP-11 ammo is the best route to go.
 
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