Just a small rant!

D

Don P

New member
I personaly think Kimber should be boycotted for selling handguns to the LAPD. They should have taken a hint from STI and refuse to do business in Kalifornia. With all the ANTI-GUN regs in the communist state you would think if all the manufacturer's stuck together and refuse to do business with Law Enforcement they might just change some state laws to more gun friendly. Micro stamping, what a bunch of B.S.. Just my personal thoughts and feelings here:barf::mad::barf:
 
Dream on

Sure, it wouold be nice and emotionally satisfying, but it isn't the cops who make those laws. Why punish them? Look around, it is the people in your state that elect the idiots who promote those laws and pass them.

We here like guns. We know guns. We know the good they can do. Most of the rest of the people only know the bad, and because of that, don't like guns. They are wrong, of course, but their votes count the same as ours.

Police markets are the bread and butter of handgun makers, and it takes a lot of guts (and individual control) to give up a segment of the market over a political issue. Ronnie Barrett did, no .50s for California LEO, because CA law says no .50 for civilians. Gutsy move. He's proud of it. He puts it in his ads! And I am proud of him for doing it. He's a real stand up guy, and here's where he stands! Makes you wonder why the rest of the gun and ammo makers don't do something similar, right?

Well, it boils down to a couple of things. Money, for one. The media constantly portrays the gun industry as a huge force, but the reality is different. Gun makers don't employ all that many people, compared to many other businesses. Gun maker with more than a thousand employees are few in number, and some smaller outfits don't even employ a hundred. They don't have the deep pockets of the oil companies, or auto makers. Giving up a significant market on principle is a huge hardship.

And, most gun companies are no owned by individuals, but by stockholders, and enough of them are only concerned with profits, and anything that reduces profits they will vote against.

And, unlike Barrett, if your product is still legal for sale to the public in CA, you've got a real hard sell, because by boycotting the police and other govt agencies, you will get a xxxxstorm of condemnation, even from the anti-gunners, for not allowing the police to protect the people with your product! it will take a real bad law (like ser# ammo or microstamping), where the gun makers are going to lose huge amounts of money no matter what they do in order to get them to boycott a state.

And, odds are, the state won't care. The politicians won't care (some will actually by glad), the police will just get their guns and ammo from other makers, probably foreign ones who don't care about any of our 2nd Amendment issues, all they care about is selling their product. And in the end, the most likely result is damage to the gun industry form loss of revenue and bad PR, and a lot of really ticked off people on both sides of the issue.

If Kimber (or S&W, or some other American gun maker) boycotts LAPD, I'm sure that Glock, or Sig or Beretta, or some other maker will be happy to take up the slack. Unless you can convince them ALL to do it, it ain't gonna work, and even if you could get them all to do it, there is still no guarantee of getting what you want.
 
Police don't make the laws but they do enforce them, and by enforcing them they are condoning them. Many pro gun cops will still bust a person for a gun violation who clearly had no ill intent and many are of the "we should have guns and you shouldn't" mindset. Kimber not only sold out for the LAPD contract but they then exploit that fact by building the exact same guns to market to the wanna be cop mall ninja crowd. Does the LAPD or SIS know anything more about what a 1911 should be than any other maker? No. The people who buy the latest and greatest "special ops unit" gun only want them to show off and brag about the fact that it's the same gun that -insert elite military or law enforcement unit here- uses and magically bestows them with all the same training and abilities. I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting gun makers to band together and boycott california, D.C. and all the anti gun states. It's the second ammendment that allows them to do buisness and geting into bed with those who are out to destroy it could eventually destroy their biggest market which is us. They may not want to ignore the LEO market now but they'll wish they had when they find that it's the only market they have left because they didn't do every thing they could to prevent their products from becominging criminalized for everyone else.

I like Glocks more than anything but if all American gun makers told antigun state LEO to kiss off until their state ligislators got off their gun banwagon, I would find something american made to suit my needs and tell Glock to kiss off. Forigen makers may sell a lot of guns to cops but they sell many more to citizens. Who would you rather piss off?
 
but it isn't the cops who make those laws. Why punish them? Look around, it is the people in your state that elect the idiots who promote those laws and pass them.
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The police did in fact lobby for those laws. One of Ronnie Barrett's points in his letter to the LAPD pointed out that they (the LAPD) took guns he had sold the police agency for the purpose of law enforcement and brought them as props to the rallies in favor of such bans. I know it was the brass more than the rank and file who pushed for the laws, but the damage was done.

I've never once seen a gun ban that also applied to the police. Considering we are a government of, by, and for the people, the only authority the government has is the authority WE give them. The authority the police have is OUR authority, exercised on OUR behalf. For the police to lobby for laws that have the gist of "for me, but not for thee" when it comes to firearm possession is disingenuous, not to mention against the very principles upon which our nation is based. If they don't trust me with guns, I don't trust them with guns, since if I don't have personal authority to own them, I cannot delegate my authority to the government to own them- such authority doesn't exist on my part, so how can I pass it along? These laws only are justified if you believe that the police and government are our masters with inherent authority, and not exercising the authority of the people. The cops should only be able to own and use that which is legal for those whom they serve to own and use. No more, no less.

I'm glad some firearm makers recognize that. I haven't boycotted firearms makers based on this, but then again, I don't own any Kimbers anyway (and am not in the market for them).
 
Manufactures boycotting Cali are doing exactly what the zero gunners are trying to accomplish and they are ecstatic over them leaving. In fact they wish more makers would pull up stakes which plays to their ultimate goals.

Yes, the new laws are onerous and difficult to apply to gun manufacturing, but it begs the question, throw out the baby with the wash water? In my humble opinion I'll offer a solution.

Manufactures could band together and modify the manufacturing process to conform to the new laws and dump millions of firearms over the next few years in Cali for half price. Sell at a loss or very close to it. Just flood the market! Make them so cheap anyone wanting a handgun could buy one for their own self protection.

Fight fire with fire.




.
 
Look around, it is the people in your state that elect the idiots who promote those laws and pass them.
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Think so? When it comes to selecting the legislature we have about as much of a democracy as Cuba. Our legislative districts are so thoroughly gerrymandered that a trek to the polls is little more than a rubber stamp. We can vote for Fidel or Fidel...

Campaign finance “reforms” have skewed the balance of power within the state to the point that the extremists making up the parties’ leadership effectively appoints their party’s candidates for the Assembly and state Senate, and then scientifically engineered gerrymandering assures that the predetermined victor wins the seat. So without redistricting reform we have zero influence on the elections and the media and the public employees' unions will never allow redistricting to happen.

To make matters worse non-citizens – including illegals are counted toward awarding seats in the legislature. This (with creative gerrymandering) skews additional seats toward handpicked Democrats, and the ones doing the hand picking are the far out in left field party leadership. And the media are there with pompoms cheering them on.
 
I'm pleased to see someone else from California post to this thread.

Ronnie Barrett did two things: first, he refused to sell (or even service) LEO's 50 cals; but second (and more importantly), he slightly altered the cartridge and then flooded the market with that.

A boycott of California will only deprive those of us brave enough to fight for our rights. Rather, the manufacturers of a banned item ought to ban law enforcement, and then flood the California market with a cheap, legal alternative that renders the law null & void.

By the way, a lot of us here in California are building legal AR15s with all the dirty fixings, including non-fixed magazines. Sometimes it's fun fighting uphill.
 
The world needs more Ronnie Barretts

Ronnie Barrett did, no .50s for California LEO, because CA law says no .50 for civilians. Gutsy move. He's proud of it. He puts it in his ads! And I am proud of him for doing it. He's a real stand up guy, and here's where he stands!
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I really admire this dude for doing this.

It cost him money and obviously he puts color of character above the no-longer-so-almighty dollar.

I toast and salute him for that.

Good work, Ronnie Barrett.:)
 
Or you can run for one of those offices.
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What part of rigged did you miss? Because the law allows the parties to control the campaign money purse strings they essentially appoint their candidates... and the gerrymandering is so perfectly done seats cannot change party hands. I have a Republican representing my district because the legislature set aside this district for the Republicans. We are allowed roughly 1/3 of the seats in the legislature. That's it.

We (our districts) are so despised by the legislature that the speaker declared publicly that he does not consider us to even be a part of the state. That would be the same speaker that fights for the "rights" of sex offenders and illegals, and hates guns and gun owners with a passion.

BTW... Almost nine years ago I posted a plea on this board for members to get involved and help us block these silly laws. To write letters to the mainstream media. To donate to the NRA's fund. To do whatever they could. Members here told me to go pound sand. So don't blame me if this silliness is spreading to congress.
 
Manufactures boycotting Cali are doing exactly what the zero gunners are trying to accomplish
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Exactly, driving gun makers out of business or out of a market is another way to ban guns without actually banning them....
 
I personaly think Kimber should be boycotted
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Your ultimate desire is to have people (in CA or any other state) who want to purchase guns to be able to do so. You advocate boycotting a gun manufacturer as the way to achieve this......

Sounds like you have the reasoning needed for government office.
 
Wow.... so much to work with....

Police don't make the laws but they do enforce them, and by enforcing them they are condoning them.
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Using that rationale, I suppose you are 100% in agreement with whatever your employer says and does??


Many pro gun cops will still bust a person for a gun violation
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I hope so. That's one of the things they are being paid to do! It is not their perogative to determine intent -- in fact the public would be quite upset if they started doing so -- applying the law subjectively.


Kimber not only sold out for the LAPD contract
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Kimber was the only manufacturer in the running? How about boycotting ALL the participants??


they then exploit that fact by building the exact same guns to market
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Surely no other gun maker has ever crossed that line!! And I can't imagine anyone wanting say a HK Mark 23 SOCOM besides the military.


Does the LAPD or SIS know anything more about what a 1911 should be than any other maker?
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Yes, I imagine as an entity they know exactly what they want in their own firearm.


The people who buy the latest and greatest "special ops unit" gun only want them to show off and brag
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Those poor misguided souls.... I guess since the FBI SWAT HRT adopted the Springfield TRP PRO we should cross that off our lists too (and that list could go on and on and on).


They may not want to ignore the LEO market now but they'll wish they had when they find that it's the only market they have left
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A 5th grader can call you on this one. If the doomsday you assert happens then they will be very glad they catered to the only remaining market available.


I can understand wanting to apply pressure to an organization in an effort to make them change their policy, but you haven't stated anything logical that would be a means to that end. :confused:
 
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Sure, it wouold be nice and emotionally satisfying, but it isn't the cops who make those laws.
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The legislature in the state of Georgia just passed a bill that is waiting for signature OR veto by our republican governor. The bill gives georgians licensed for conceal carry (300,000 of us) the additional rights to carry on public transportation such as busses and trains AND to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. The Atlanta Chief of Police came out against this bill.

My point? Yes, LEO are often on the other side of our 2nd amendment rights... not all of course, but we must recognize the fact that many do lobby against our gun rights. On the other hand, the author of the bill is a former police officer near the Atlanta area. So, I realize there are two sides of a coin, so to speak.
 
CDE...

Quote:
Police don't make the laws but they do enforce them, and by enforcing them they are condoning them.

Using that rationale, I suppose you are 100% in agreement with whatever your employer says and does??

As I am my own employer, yes, I do. The arguement that they are just following orders is weak. Those cops who took guns from innocent people in New Orleans were just following orders. I supposed they would have just gone ahead and given them all a good billy clubbing as well if told to do so.

Quote:
Many pro gun cops will still bust a person for a gun violation

I hope so. That's one of the things they are being paid to do! It is not their perogative to determine intent -- in fact the public would be quite upset if they started doing so -- applying the law subjectively.

Cops decide who to bust and who to let go all the time. There's letter of the law and spirit of the law. Do I really need to explain how that works? The next time you are pulled over for speeding and let off with a warning can I assume you will insist on getting that ticket?

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Kimber not only sold out for the LAPD contract

Kimber was the only manufacturer in the running? How about boycotting ALL the participants??



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they then exploit that fact by building the exact same guns to market

Surely no other gun maker has ever crossed that line!! And I can't imagine anyone wanting say a HK Mark 23 SOCOM besides the military.



Quote:
Does the LAPD or SIS know anything more about what a 1911 should be than any other maker?

Yes, I imagine as an entity they know exactly what they want in their own firearm.



Quote:
The people who buy the latest and greatest "special ops unit" gun only want them to show off and brag

Those poor misguided souls.... I guess since the FBI SWAT HRT adopted the Springfield TRP PRO we should cross that off our lists too (and that list could go on and on and on).


Every gun magazine I have looked at in the last 2 months has the !!! NEW KIMBER SIS !!! on the cover as if we have never seen a black 1911 before. Big f-ing yawn. They know they are hawking the same old crap so they go with the whole "If it's good enough for the SIS then it's good enough for you!" angle and that's all it is. An angle. Apparently the Super Elite SIS Forces specified but ugly cocking grooves on their gun and as for the rest just give us a run of the mill 1911.


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They may not want to ignore the LEO market now but they'll wish they had when they find that it's the only market they have left

A 5th grader can call you on this one. If the doomsday you assert happens then they will be very glad they catered to the only remaining market available.

A 4th grader can understand that catering to a particular customer doesn't mean you are locked in as their soul supplier for life. Doing so at the expense of the rights that allow you to sell your products to others is just plain greedy and stupid.


I can understand wanting to apply pressure to an organization in an effort to make them change their policy, but you haven't stated anything logical that would be a means to that end.

If only stating logic were a requirement to post on TFL then who would be left for us to converse with?
 
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