Jury: Feds not responsible for Waco

Ledbetter

New member
Jury: Govt. Not Responsible in Waco

by SHERRI CHUNN
Associated Press Writer

WACO, Texas (AP) -- A jury decided Friday that the government does not bear responsibility for the deaths of 80
Branch Davidians during the cult's 1993 standoff with federal agents. A federal judge will take the ruling into account
before delivering the verdict himself sometime later.

The five jurors deliberated for just 2½ hours in the $675 million wrongful-death lawsuit filed by surviving Branch
Davidians and relatives of those who were killed in the standoff.

The plaintiffs contended that the government should shoulder some blame for the botched raid that started the 51-day
standoff and the final day of the siege, when the cult's compound went up in flames.

But the jury found that the government did not use excessive force during the raid and was not negligent in violating a
plan by driving tanks into the compound. The panel also had been asked whether agents contributed to or spread the
fires or violated a directive to have firefighting equipment on the scene.

Through sometimes emotional testimony recounting the standoff, the government contended that agents were
ambushed by heavily armed Davidians in the raid and that suicidal members of the group set the fires themselves on the
final day.

On Monday, jurors heard audio tapes made inside the compound, in which unidentified Branch Davidians were heard
asking ''start the fire?'' and ''should we light the fire?''

''This was one of the most terrible and horrible events in our history and they want to come into court and ask you to
award them a judgment,'' U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford, who defended the government, said in closing arguments.
''That would be wrong. It would not be supported by anything that would be just and right.''

Plaintiffs' lawyers, including Ramsey Clark, who was attorney general during Lyndon Johnson's administration, said the
deaths of the cult members ''didn't have to happen and called the siege ''the greatest domestic law enforcement tragedy
in the history of the United States.''

''If the conduct of the ATF and the FBI was performed without excessive force and without negligence, then how in
the world did it end up with such unmitigated, disastrous effects?'' Clark said in closing arguments.

U.S. District Judge Walter Smith said he will take the jury's findings under advisement and render a verdict later,
possibly in August.

Before the trial, Smith ruled that the jury would not consider perhaps the most contentious issue -- whether federal
agents shot at the Davidians at the end of the siege. The judge said he will take up that issue before issuing his final
verdict.

The siege began on Feb. 28, 1993, when Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents tried to search the complex and arrest
David Koresh, the cult's leader, on illegal weapons charges. Six Davidians and four ATF agents were killed in the
ensuing shootout.

The standoff ended April 19, 1993, with the deaths of some 80 men, women and children inside the compound from
either gunshots or from the flames that quickly engulfed the building hours into a tear-gassing operation designed to end
the siege.

Michael Caddell, an attorney for most of the plaintiffs, cited government documents that he said proves agents deviated
from their planned tear-gassing operation and took steps that put innocent people inside the compound, called Mount Carmel, in danger.

''This case is about the children at Mount Carmel, but it's too late to save those children,'' Caddell said. ''This case is
also about those other children ... the children that will be there with the next David Koresh. What you do will help
determine what happens to those children.''

In the audio tapes played in court Monday, a male voice inside the compound could be heard saying, ''Let's keep that fire going,'' as tanks rumbled in the background.

Federal agents were heard warning sect members of an impending tear-gassing operation and urged them to surrender.
On the same excerpt, a male voice was heard asking, ''Should we light the package?''

A day earlier, an unidentified male said, ''you always wanted to be a charcoal briquette ... There's nothing like a good
fire to bring us to the earth.''

The recordings were made with tiny eavesdropping devices hidden among supplies that were sent to the compound by
the government.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs had sought to have the tapes ruled inadmissible because the voices could not be identified. But Smith said it didn't matter exactly who was talking as long as it had been determined the voices were those of adult Davidians.

Separate from this case, Attorney General Janet Reno last September appointed former Missouri Sen. John Danforth as
special counsel to resolve unanswered questions about the final hours of the standoff.

A spokeswoman for Danforth, Jan Diltz, would not comment on Friday's decision, nor would she speculate on when Danforth might conclude his probe.

AP-NY-07-14-00 1648EDT< 
 
Well, that was quick, but not terribly suprising; When the government gets to determine what evidence can be used against the government, how can the government lose?

------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
 
That's it. I have officially lost all faith in the legal system.

Hey, Judge Smith: ever heard the term "Hanging Judge?" Think about it. :mad:
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coinneach:
That's it. I have officially lost all faith in the legal system.
[/quote]


I lost faith a few weeks back when in traffic court.

First, I was refused a jury trial, my RIGHT as stated by both the US and California Constitution.

Then, the judge allowed illegal (expired data as described in the law) evidence to be admited. The sheriff failed to prove his case in the slightest. I moved for dismisal (lack of evidance) and was denied.

I am not expecting perfection here, just something that resembles justice.

The flashpoint to revolution just moved alot closer today.
 
Anyone hear anything about the FLIR expert who was murdered a few weeks before this whole thing took off? Any followup on the murder of the best witness the plaintiff had?

Ummm, no.

What about this jury of 5?

uhhh, no big deal.

This wasn't O.J. millionare scandel hollywood celebrity murder, this was just something minor, the most imporant civil case ever in recent history.

I am not at all suprised at this outcome, I was hoping to be, but the deck was stacked from the outset.

I am not sure what this means, but it cannot bode well.
 
Anyone hear anything about the FLIR expert who was murdered a few weeks before this whole thing took off? Any followup on the murder of the best witness the plaintiff had?

Oddly, all opposition to the Feds' position vanished after Carlos G was found dead in his office. Imagine that.
 
It appears that the case was decided on the basis of the Government's recordings of unkown persons' remarks out of context.

Or did I miss something?

------------------
You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
I'm sickened by this finding.

I've had my suspicions that Liberty was being held hostage, but this appears to prove the notion.

Throw in the Robert Stewart case, and you should well recognize that this is a witch hunt.

I think I need to take some time out, so I'll not be posting here for awhile.

I just feel really ill about the corruption going on. And that there are corrupt Federal organizations running amok, without fear of retribution, or reprimand. I feel like puking. The whole thing is infested with disease, and will crumble from it's own evil...

So long to all.

Best Regards,
Don

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
For those who may not have followed this part,

The most damning evidence was the FLIR Tape,
(The government got to tamper with/destroy most of the rest)
----------------------------------------

April 30, 2000
Web posted at: 5:08 a.m. EDT (0908 GMT)

LAUREL, Maryland (CNN) -- The badly decomposed body of Carlos Ghigliotti,
a key investigator into the U.S. government's 1993 raid on the Branch Davidian
compound in Texas, was found on Friday at his office in Laurel, Maryland,
police said Saturday.

Police on Friday were called to Ghigliotti's firm, Infrared Technology, by
building management, who told police they had not seen Ghigliotti in several
weeks.

Police say they found no signs of a struggle or break-in.

The body has been sent to the state medical
examiner in Baltimore for an autopsy. Results won't be known until sometime
next week.

Ghigliotti was retained by the House Government Reform Committee, chaired by
Indiana Republican Dan Burton, in late 1999 during its investigation into the
government's raid on the Branch Davidian compound in April 1993.

After spending hundreds of hours viewing tapes of the raid, Ghigliotti claimed
there was proof the government had fired shots into the Davidian compound
during the raid, an allegation the government continues to deny.

Ghigliotti also said he believed the Davidians had also fired on government
officials.

Between 1991 and 1995, Ghigliotti was paid by the FBI as a thermal imaging
expert on an array of environmental dumping cases and, according to FBI
documents, "performed reliable work."
-------------------------------------------

Within two weeks, the fix is in, a british company, Vector Data Systems reviews the tape for a few minutes, pronounces the flashes in question sunlight reflections, the Government runs with that, problem solved.
No worries.

From CNN report dispatch dated May 11th (not even two weeks)
----------------------------

Reno questioned by Danforth for six hours;
Davidians lawyer attacks Vector report

By Correspondent Terry Frieden

May 11, 2000
Web posted at: 4:54 p.m. EDT (2054 GMT)

>snip<
A crucial piece of the investigation was made
public Wednesday when a report by technical
experts hired by Danforth and approved by a
federal judge concluded infrared videotape on the day of the fire showed no evidence of FBI gunfire.

The analysis by Vector Data Systems, a British firm that conducted the March
simulation of the FBI infrared taping, concluded the flashes on the FBI tape
resulted from solar reflections.

The FBI hailed the results and said the report "vindicates those FBI people long
accused of shooting into the compound".

----------------------------------------

Bingo!!!

The Government has been dogged by this damned tape ever since it surfaced. Every expert who got a good look said that was gunfire. Those of us who have done infantry armor support know the tactics, and they are right there on the tape, plain as day.

So the big dog of FLIR imaging technology, the Big Kahoona, The Ayotola of Rock'nRolla in the land of IR, Carlos Ghigliotti, the most expert of any FLIR expert, the man who has studied this tape more deeply than any person living or dead, There is just no one better qualified, even the FBI concurrs to this, Says plainly that there is gun fire, not just the gun fire we all thought was there, but gunfire from the sniper post manned by, guess who?? that's right, the Butcher of Ruby Ridge, Dead-eye Lon himself.
Bing!!!! Oh No!! Carlos Ghigliotti is dead, whatever happened to him? Guess we need to get a British firm who is beholden to the Fed for hundreds of millions of dollars of contract work to look at the tape for a few minutes and pronounce it free from gunfire.

Now with that part of the problem out of the way, (a big part I might add) the next most damning evidence, in the other direction, are the wiretap tapes, which the government has all the time in the world to play with. And the government, in form of the FBI has been caught tampering with evidence in this case before, , , ,

What are "We the People" supposed to buy into here?

------------------------------------------
 
I heard a more honest report on the radio earlier today. The reporter indicated that Judge Smith disallowed most of the plaintiffs' evidence, and thus they couldn't put on much of a case. (I also understand he is the same judge who treated the Davidians so unfairly during sentencing in the criminal trial.)

Cute, eh? They have a trial. They ostensibly have a jury. They hear evidence, but not all the evidence. Then, the judge will render a verdict. History will show they had a 'fair' trial to decide the matter ...

I wonder how often this has happened in our history?

The fed's have been foolish to sweep this under the rug, even by means so clever. They will never live this down, and this kind of underhanded dealing deepens the chasm between them and the American people.

Sad, isn't it. And, these days, apparently quite predictable.

Regards from AZ
 
The rift has deepened immeasurablely in the last two days (R. Stewart and Waco).

The Tories are on the move.

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
I believe the coroner said Carlos Ghigliotti died from a heart attack. People do die from natural causes after all. We do not know it was murder. We have suspicions, but no proof.
 
Hi BTR;

Yes, People do die from natural causes. Pretty convienent heart attack, could hardly have come at a more crucial time. But yes, they do happen.

That said, However he died, to take his finding, everything that was known about the tape, the months, nay, years of study he had, toss all of it, turn it over to a government toady for a couple of hours, the toady ringer finds to the complete and total contrary of principle and that's not just a bit odd?
No one even questions?

Please.


[This message has been edited by dog3 (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
It will be interesting to see what the jury members are willing to talk about later. The other issue in my mind is the performance of plaintiff's attorney Ramsey Clark, who may be fairly said to be past his prime.

Ledbetter
 
http://dallasnews.com/waco/111725_waco14.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Congress waived soveriegn immunity. Congress passed a statute that allowed the government to be sued. ...Congress in its wisdom put certain limits on that right. ...An important limit that Congress put on that right, they simply did not trust juries to decide cases where the government is being sued.

(Now, why would they do such a thing? Are they afraid that the "government" might lose? How much better to allow a government employee to determine a suit against its employer!)

"... Federal statutes allow and federal rules of proceedure allow judges to impanel advisory juries. ... That's not limited to Federal Tort Claims Act cases.[/quote]


------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
....and to the Republic, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all...or something like that. There be evil and treachery among our government minions. Cast the virmin into the ever widening pit of fire and damnation. Let their torment be heard above the cries of those they had persecuted in life. Let it be their curse for eternity.

Well, hell...it ain't perfect but when the shoe fits...drop kick their axxxx over the goal post of life to the depths of perdition.
We sure don't need that sort mucking around up here with decent loyal Americans.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Let me see Federal court finds Federal agency not guilty????DA.... :rolleyes:Originally posted by Ledbetter:

Jury: Govt. Not Responsible in Waco

by SHERRI CHUNN
Associated Press Writer

WACO, Texas (AP) -- A jury decided Friday that the government does not bear responsibility for the deaths of 80
Branch Davidians during the cult's 1993 standoff with federal agents. A federal judge will take the ruling into account
before delivering the verdict himself sometime later.

The five jurors deliberated for just 2½ hours in the $675 million wrongful-death lawsuit filed by surviving Branch
Davidians and relatives of those who were killed in the standoff.

The plaintiffs contended that the government should shoulder some blame for the botched raid that started the 51-day
standoff and the final day of the siege, when the cult's compound went up in flames.

But the jury found that the government did not use excessive force during the raid and was not negligent in violating a
plan by driving tanks into the compound. The panel also had been asked whether agents contributed to or spread the
fires or violated a directive to have firefighting equipment on the scene.

Through sometimes emotional testimony recounting the standoff, the government contended that agents were
ambushed by heavily armed Davidians in the raid and that suicidal members of the group set the fires themselves on the
final day.

On Monday, jurors heard audio tapes made inside the compound, in which unidentified Branch Davidians were heard
asking ''start the fire?'' and ''should we light the fire?''

''This was one of the most terrible and horrible events in our history and they want to come into court and ask you to
award them a judgment,'' U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford, who defended the government, said in closing arguments.
''That would be wrong. It would not be supported by anything that would be just and right.''

Plaintiffs' lawyers, including Ramsey Clark, who was attorney general during Lyndon Johnson's administration, said the
deaths of the cult members ''didn't have to happen and called the siege ''the greatest domestic law enforcement tragedy
in the history of the United States.''

''If the conduct of the ATF and the FBI was performed without excessive force and without negligence, then how in
the world did it end up with such unmitigated, disastrous effects?'' Clark said in closing arguments.

U.S. District Judge Walter Smith said he will take the jury's findings under advisement and render a verdict later,
possibly in August.

Before the trial, Smith ruled that the jury would not consider perhaps the most contentious issue -- whether federal
agents shot at the Davidians at the end of the siege. The judge said he will take up that issue before issuing his final
verdict.

The siege began on Feb. 28, 1993, when Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents tried to search the complex and arrest
David Koresh, the cult's leader, on illegal weapons charges. Six Davidians and four ATF agents were killed in the
ensuing shootout.

The standoff ended April 19, 1993, with the deaths of some 80 men, women and children inside the compound from
either gunshots or from the flames that quickly engulfed the building hours into a tear-gassing operation designed to end
the siege.

Michael Caddell, an attorney for most of the plaintiffs, cited government documents that he said proves agents deviated
from their planned tear-gassing operation and took steps that put innocent people inside the compound, called Mount Carmel, in danger.

''This case is about the children at Mount Carmel, but it's too late to save those children,'' Caddell said. ''This case is
also about those other children ... the children that will be there with the next David Koresh. What you do will help
determine what happens to those children.''

In the audio tapes played in court Monday, a male voice inside the compound could be heard saying, ''Let's keep that fire going,'' as tanks rumbled in the background.

Federal agents were heard warning sect members of an impending tear-gassing operation and urged them to surrender.
On the same excerpt, a male voice was heard asking, ''Should we light the package?''

A day earlier, an unidentified male said, ''you always wanted to be a charcoal briquette ... There's nothing like a good
fire to bring us to the earth.''

The recordings were made with tiny eavesdropping devices hidden among supplies that were sent to the compound by
the government.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs had sought to have the tapes ruled inadmissible because the voices could not be identified. But Smith said it didn't matter exactly who was talking as long as it had been determined the voices were those of adult Davidians.

Separate from this case, Attorney General Janet Reno last September appointed former Missouri Sen. John Danforth as
special counsel to resolve unanswered questions about the final hours of the standoff.

A spokeswoman for Danforth, Jan Diltz, would not comment on Friday's decision, nor would she speculate on when Danforth might conclude his probe.

AP-NY-07-14-00 1648EDT< 
[/quote]
 
Back
Top