Judge clears Illinois officer of gun charge

Wildcard

Moderator
Read this article. Pretend that the folks charged are not LEO's. Then ask yourself if the outcome would have been different.

On the flip side, maybe this could be a great precedent for the good folks of IL who might get shafted.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/D7F0E9521764751F862571DB00183568?OpenDocument

Judge clears Illinois officer of gun charge
By Tim O'Neil
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Wednesday, Aug. 30 2006

Charges that an Illinois State Police sergeant illegally possessed a machine
gun were dismissed Wednesday by a federal judge, who ruled that the law was
"unconstitutionally vague" as applied to him.

In federal court in East St. Louis, U.S. District Judge David R. Herndon
dropped the charges against Sgt. James V. Vest of O'Fallon, Ill., who was lead
rifle instructor for the department's District 11 in the Metro East area.
Herndon's 26-page order says the confusion is over the federal law's exception
for police officers, and whether Vest could reasonably be expected to know
whether he was breaking the law.

Vest was one of four people, including two other Illinois state troopers,
separately accused in January of illegally possessing machine guns. Such fully
automatic weapons are banned by federal law except for certain uses, such as by
the military and police agencies, or by people with a special license, which
the four did not have.

A machine gun fires multiple rounds with one squeeze of the trigger.

How Herndon's ruling would affect the other cases was unclear Wednesday, partly
because the charges against them are not identical.

Two other defendants, State Police Special Agent John Yard of Collinsville and
Dr. Harold Griffiths of Spaulding, Ill., have similar constitutional claims
pending before U.S. District Judge Michael J. Reagan in East St. Louis.

The remaining defendant, Senior Master Trooper Greg Mugge of Jerseyville,
pleaded guilty July 25 of possession of an unregistered machine gun. His
lawyer, John Delaney Jr., said Wednesday that he was studying the Vest case
ruling. "Who knows what will happen?" he said.

Clyde Kuehn, one of Vest's lawyers, said Wednesday "was a very relieving and
happy day" for his client. Vest remains on administrative leave.

The four were charged after investigations by the federal Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. It was not clear at the outset what triggered
the probe. None of the four was accused of using the weapons in any crimes.

U.S. Attorney Randy Massey, whose office brought the charges, declined
Wednesday to discuss Herndon's ruling. Massey's office had opposed Vest's
motion to dismiss.

"We are evaluating the order and are looking into our options," he said.

The charges carry a maximum prison term of 10 years and a fine of up to
$250,000, although federal guidelines call for less when defendants have no
criminal records.

Gun used in classes

The case against Vest concerned an M-4 machine gun, essentially a short-barrel
form of the standard M-16 military weapon, that he bought in 1998 and used in
his state police training classes. The charges allege that he lacked authority
from the state to buy or possess the weapon.

Vest argued that he bought and used it under the "law enforcement exception" in
the federal law. Some police agencies have machine guns in their arsenals,
particularly for their tactical teams.

Herndon noted that the prosecution never claimed that Vest ever used the M-4
for anything but official purposes. The judge said the government argued that a
law enforcement agency, not a single police officer, has the authority to
permit possession of a machine gun.

But Herndon wrote that the federal law granting that authority was too vague in
this instance to support the charges against Vest.

"How would a police officer/lead rifle instructor such as Vest ever know
whether his possession of a machine gun or other prohibited weapon was legal,
as there is no guidance under the (statute) as to what constitutes proper
authority," the judge wrote. "It does not appear that this statute was designed
to criminalize police officers even if they may be guilty of mere technical
violations."


Given that Vest apparently used it only for law enforcement purposes, Herndon
said, charging him "seems to go against the purpose" of the federal law.

A spokesman for the Illinois State Police headquarters in Springfield had no
comment on the ruling and said he could not discuss personnel matters regarding
Vest.

In February, 10 Metro East police chiefs, two county sheriffs and two state
senators publicly urged leniency for the accused officers.
 
Funny, for everybody else, ignorance of the law is no defence.
It is completely irrelevant whether or not he could reasonably know if he was in violation of the law or not. It was incumbent on him to find out.
Heck, I don't even need to know how fast I was going or the speed limit to get a speeding ticket.

Besides, I was under the impression that law enforcement agencies needed to get their paperwork too. On that same thought, I believe I had read that some smaller departments don't bother with Class III because of the paperwork.
 
Pretend that the folks charged are not LEO's. Then ask yourself if the outcome would have been different.
Common sense would tell you that the outcome would have to be different
a federal judge, who ruled that the law was
"unconstitutionally vague" as applied to him.
Herndon's 26-page order says the confusion is over the federal law's exception
for police officers, and whether Vest could reasonably be expected to know
whether he was breaking the law.
You highlighted that one yourself
But Herndon wrote that the federal law granting that authority was too vague in
this instance to support the charges against Vest.
Given that Vest apparently used it only for law enforcement purposes, Herndon
said, charging him "seems to go against the purpose" of the federal law.
If you take away the fact that the defendant was a cop you would nullify all the judges reasons for his findings.
Unless of course you can find a way that a non LEO could find any vagueness in the law, or the spirit of the law as it applies to them.
 
It is completely irrelevant whether or not he could reasonably know if he was in violation of the law or not. It was incumbent on him to find out.
The findings of the judge indicate that it would not be reasonably possible for him to find out.

Heck, I don't even need to know how fast I was going or the speed limit to get a speeding ticket.
You have reasonable access to the information that will clearly answer those questions though
 
Yet civilians are expected to find out from some small agency like the ATF. Surely an answer with their letterhead could have been obtained.

And not knowing I had a damaged speedometer is no defence in getting a speeding ticket, though it might later be taken into consideration.
 
It's nice that no one on this board is locking this discussion down for 'cop bashing' when the inevitable fact that there is a double standard here is pointed out. :)
 
I don't see it as cop bashing at all, although I believe that that was the original intent of the poster, just discussing a legitimate flaw in the system.
Whether that flaw being vague laws that should not even be on the books or favoritism to a government agency..
And not knowing I had a damaged speedometer is no defense in getting a speeding ticket, though it might later be taken into consideration.
It is your responsibility to maintain the very maintainable components of your vehicle and to be in control of your vehicle at all times.
But, I have had friends(years ago) that beat a ticket when they had their speedometers calibrated and it was shown that the instrument was defective through no fault of their own.
And also using your argument , with regards to the cop case, the defects in the law were taken into consideration at a later date after the officer was cited.

Has there ever been a case where an average citizen got off because of a vagueness in the law?
$10 says there is.

Personally I would have felt better if he had defended himself based on the unconstitutionality of the law, but not everyone has the balls to stand on principle and some don't even have them.
He may very well have simply tried to exploit the wording knowing full well that he was in violation.

The same way I tried to beat a bad tag ticket by trying to pretend that I didn't know the tag was out of date.
Cop said that he would have let me off if it had not been four months out.
 
Such fully
automatic weapons are banned by federal law except for certain uses,

__________such as by the military and police agencies,____________________

or by people with a special license, which the four did not have.

I see a loophole in the federal law that should not be there. I DO NOT see favoritism to police.
 
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Quote:
Pretend that the folks charged are not LEO's. Then ask yourself if the outcome would have been different.

joab said:
Common sense would tell you that the outcome would have to be different

If we pretend the folks charged are not LEOs, the case is completely different because the "exemption clause" would not be applicable. The focus here is on the vagueness of the exemption for LEO use of Class III firearms.

Larger agencies will usually purchase their own Class III guns and keep them in a department armory for issuance to SWAT team members. In these cases the individual officers do not need a Class III stamp.

Some smaller agencies will issue an officer a letter on official letterhead stating that the officer is authorized to posses a Class III weapon for official duties so that the officer can purchase the firearm. This typically avoids the need for some Class III paperwork and tax-stamp. If the officer leaves the agency, the firearm is supposed to be turned over to the department. I'm sure there are a number of Class III guns out there owned by ex-cops who never turned them in 10 or 15 years after acquiring them.

In this case, the officer lacked an official letter but purchased an M-4 in 1998 and used it in training classes. If the officer used department funds to purchase the firearm, then I would expect that the State Police owns the weapon. If the officer purchased it with his own funds, un-reimbursed by the state, and used it ONLY in LEO training classes and for LEO purposes, that would seem to fulfil the intent of Congress -- to permit police access to Class III weapons for LEO purposes.

The question in my mind is why the State Police did not track the M-4 as part of its record-keeping or why they didn't require the officer to show legal ownership of the M-4 used. Rather than seeing this as a federal felony, I see it as a procedural issue between the officer and his agency over record keeping.
 
If we pretend the folks charged are not LEOs, the case is completely different

I am sorry but I must respectfully disagree. The point is not whether or not it was used in training.

Funny, for everybody else, ignorance of the law is no defence

Is the point. I have tried in Illinois and Chicago to get answers to specific questions about firearms laws. Tried and tried and tried. No one would give an answer, closest I could get was a private attorney who would be paid to give an opinoin but stated ahead of time he was not certain and would charge extra to appear in court if he was wrong.

Do not believe me? try to get an answer about "fannypack carry" in Illinois. Another member of this board ISP2605 stated that when he was employed by the state police that they asked all 102 states attorneys in Illinois how they handled the law. None would give an answer to the state police who were supposed to enforce the law.

Why should every Tom,Dick and Henrietta be supposed to know all the laws in the city, county, state they live in but a State Police officer who teaches firearms does not know the law and how it applies to him?

Sorry, but this is very clearly a case of double standards one for the LEOs one for everybody else. Especially when so many people have been convicted for bookkeeping errors on NFA weapons

I'm sorry BillCA what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

NukemJim

PS having said the above I am glad the LEOs got off, laws against inanimate objects are IMHO stupid. It is behavior that should be regulated. NukemJim

Edited by NukemJim because I transposed digits in ISP2605's boardname
 
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I am sorry but I must respectfully disagree. The point is not whether or not it was used in training.
The judges decision was based on the fact that the defendant was a LEO
Herndon's 26-page order says the confusion is over the federal law's exception
for police officers,
Vest argued that he bought and used it under the "law enforcement exception" in
the federal law.
How would a police officer/lead rifle instructor such as Vest ever know
whether his possession of a machine gun or other prohibited weapon was legal,
as there is no guidance under the (statute) as to what constitutes proper
authority," the judge wrote. "It does not appear that this statute was designed
to criminalize police officers even if they may be guilty of mere technical
violations."

How would it be generally possible for a Non-LEO to use a gun for official LEO purposes
Given that Vest apparently used it only for law enforcement purposes, Herndon
said, charging him "seems to go against the purpose" of the federal law.

The whole decision hinged on whether Vest was a LEO, not just an instructor although that may have lent some credibility to his claim
 
BillCA said:
If we pretend the folks charged are not LEOs, the case is completely different

I am sorry but I must respectfully disagree. The point is not whether or not it was used in training.

Then we'll have to disagree, Jim. My point was that there would be no case at all if the person charged was not a LEO. The whole case revolved around the exception for LEOs to possess Class III arms in performance of their duties.

Certainly, if the person involved was a civilian and did not have the proper ATF paperwork (and likely State paperwork) he'd be up the proverbial creek -- because there are no exception clauses for civilians.

I agree with you, for the most part, that laws against inanimate objects are generally a bad idea (we can all think of a few obvious exceptions).

I'll even say that any law which does not clearly describe exactly that which is prohibited and/or whose language can be expanded to cover non-obvious meanings from a plain reading, are unconstitutionally vague.
 
I must agree that the statement by the judge about the officer not being reasonably able to find out the law is absolutely useless. It doesn't work for non-LEO, shouldn't work for LEO.

However, that statement is also entirely unnecessary to find the officer not guilty due to the other reason mentioned by the judge, the LE exception. That was all he needed to say.

The "he didn't have to know the law, but you are required to" reason is total crap. I don't know why it was included in the decision at all
 
that statement is also entirely unnecessary to find the officer not guilty due to the other reason mentioned by the judge, the LE exception
But the whole premise of the judges decision is that the vagueness of the legal definition of the LE exception is what makes it near impossible for the officer to know the law.

The judge basically said
" I can't figure it out, why should he be able to"

If that same premise was applied to a law aimed at the general population the finding would be the same for a non LEO
 
He falsified documents by using department letterhead. As far as the company, Botach IIRC, was concerned, the weapons were being sold to a LEA. They were, in fact, private sales to cops who thought they were too good to do things the right way.


Thsi is a double standard, and its sickening to me. In my opinion, not only was he guilty of violating the NFA, but of forgery, fraud, and no telling what else.
 
The judge basically said
" I can't figure it out, why should he be able to"

So, if I found myself in jail, charged with a law that is vague to my understanding, would it be a defense for me at trial....I think not. I would be slapped with the "Ignorance of the Law is not an excuse" .
 
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