JSP vs JHP in a 4" .357mag
- Thread starter ump45
- Start date
Greeting's ump45,
First of all, "JSP" stands for jacketed soft point; and
of course "JHP" stands for jacketed hollow point. It
is my understanding the negative factor of using JSP's
for defensive purposes is the possibility of some over
penetration. While this may be good for a hunting
weapon; it's a NO-NO in a weapon that may
haved to be used in a defensive situation!
In a Smith & Wesson 4" barrel 686, the .357 magnum
125 grain jacketed hollow point as made by one of
the major manufacter's would be the logical choice.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
First of all, "JSP" stands for jacketed soft point; and
of course "JHP" stands for jacketed hollow point. It
is my understanding the negative factor of using JSP's
for defensive purposes is the possibility of some over
penetration. While this may be good for a hunting
weapon; it's a NO-NO in a weapon that may
haved to be used in a defensive situation!
In a Smith & Wesson 4" barrel 686, the .357 magnum
125 grain jacketed hollow point as made by one of
the major manufacter's would be the logical choice.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Robert Foote
New member
Way back in the early 70s the 158 gr JSP was the Border Patrol's standard load. The recoil was severe, the bullet rarely expanded, and it overpenetrated like hell. In other words, a pistolero's worst nightmare. I took a while, but eventually reliable JHP loads were developed and law enforcement agencies developed sufficient huevos to adopt loads that actually worked.
Thought everyone knew that.
Thought everyone knew that.
Currently use JSP out of 6" .357. They are particularly accurate for my gun, which is why I am currently shooting them. JSP is for when the emphasis is on greater penetration than expansion, as in hunting, etc. I have no qualms about using it for self-defense, but JHP is probably better. Accuracy first, penetration second, and then expansion.
Unsure what the high velocity means but would assume that it means you are in the higher velocity range of .357 ammo. That range typically runs from 1150 fps to about 1550 fps with most manufacturers. (for example I typically choose ammo that zips out at around 1250 fps as I believe it to be more accurate in my gun).
Unsure what the high velocity means but would assume that it means you are in the higher velocity range of .357 ammo. That range typically runs from 1150 fps to about 1550 fps with most manufacturers. (for example I typically choose ammo that zips out at around 1250 fps as I believe it to be more accurate in my gun).
JSP-to expand a bit on Bob Foote's post
Like the others have said, JSP stands for jacketed soft point. The JSP was pretty much an early attempt to create a bullet that would offer controlled expansion at typical handgun velocity. Since it worked umpteen times better than the typical hollow points of the day, a lot of people used them. That really doesn't say a whole lot for either of them,,,the HP or the JSP,,since neither worked particularly well. Early HP's would either cave in on themselves, or if jacketed, the jacket was so tough it wouldn't allow the bullet to mushroom.(Everybody takes for granted that today you can pick up a box of X-brand JHP ammo that works like it's supposed to 90% of the time...it wasn't always that way. What you see today, is pretty much the result of 50 some years,,or more if you consider the original dum-dum, of trying to get it right.) Today, the JHP has reached a level where it can offer reliable controlled expansion, which makes it a better choice all around. Nothing wrong with a JSP that works like it supposed to. Matter of fact, the terminal performance is above what a JHP can hope to deliver since it retaines more of it's original weight. The problem is that they seldom work like their supposed to, especially in smaller calibers like the .357 Mag.
RE: High Velocity--prolly just a marketing term. AFAIC, a .357Mag of any flavor ('cept maybe the Cowboy loading) is high velocity by it's very nature.
Like the others have said, JSP stands for jacketed soft point. The JSP was pretty much an early attempt to create a bullet that would offer controlled expansion at typical handgun velocity. Since it worked umpteen times better than the typical hollow points of the day, a lot of people used them. That really doesn't say a whole lot for either of them,,,the HP or the JSP,,since neither worked particularly well. Early HP's would either cave in on themselves, or if jacketed, the jacket was so tough it wouldn't allow the bullet to mushroom.(Everybody takes for granted that today you can pick up a box of X-brand JHP ammo that works like it's supposed to 90% of the time...it wasn't always that way. What you see today, is pretty much the result of 50 some years,,or more if you consider the original dum-dum, of trying to get it right.) Today, the JHP has reached a level where it can offer reliable controlled expansion, which makes it a better choice all around. Nothing wrong with a JSP that works like it supposed to. Matter of fact, the terminal performance is above what a JHP can hope to deliver since it retaines more of it's original weight. The problem is that they seldom work like their supposed to, especially in smaller calibers like the .357 Mag.
RE: High Velocity--prolly just a marketing term. AFAIC, a .357Mag of any flavor ('cept maybe the Cowboy loading) is high velocity by it's very nature.
Because humans are thinly skinned and have fairly light bones. Animals such as deer, pigs, and so forth have thick hides and thick bones. The JSP does not expand as violently as the JHP when these heavy tissues are penetrated. Years ago, Robert Shimek recommended using 125gr JHP 357 Magnums for deer. His advice was good only for broad side shots directly into the rib cage area. If the 125gr JHP encountered the shoulder, it would expand and fragment with little penetration and a nasty surface wound. The light weight JHP works well against human targets because we usually stand upright, giving the shooter the best shot at the torso and the bullet is not likely to encounter a heavy bone.
Mannlicher
New member
The degree of fear of 'over penetration' is astounding here. Depending on body weight, and where the bullet hits, even JHP bullets 'over penetrate'.
I have tested a variety of JHP and JSP bullets over the years, and my tests show that the resulting mushroom shape of the recovered bullet is pretty much the same for both styles. The soft point will expand, it is designed to do that. The hollow point often just fills with debris from clothing or any barrier it passes through, to subsequently perform like a soft point anyway.
My first thought with defensive ammo is to find the one that shoots accuratly, and works effectivly from my gun. My biggest concern is stopping the bad guy. Everything after that is secondary.
The constant bleating about "over penetration", and the constant tie in, "what will happen in court" is interesting, but if pursued with single minded zeal, can wind up making you the loser in a confrontation.
I have tested a variety of JHP and JSP bullets over the years, and my tests show that the resulting mushroom shape of the recovered bullet is pretty much the same for both styles. The soft point will expand, it is designed to do that. The hollow point often just fills with debris from clothing or any barrier it passes through, to subsequently perform like a soft point anyway.
My first thought with defensive ammo is to find the one that shoots accuratly, and works effectivly from my gun. My biggest concern is stopping the bad guy. Everything after that is secondary.
The constant bleating about "over penetration", and the constant tie in, "what will happen in court" is interesting, but if pursued with single minded zeal, can wind up making you the loser in a confrontation.
If I were at my parents house or grandparents, I would use the JSP with absolutely no qualms about it, despite the 'overpenetration' factor. HOWEVER, I live in a condominium that is basically a nice apartment building. If I were to use the .357 at all, I would be concerned about any misses [and yes, despite the best training in the world, that does happen- or the military/spec.forces would only be issued as many bullets as there were targets] going through the walls and taking out my neighbors in their sleep. You see, those two residences are so remote that the nearest neighbor is about 3/4 of a mile around the bend in the valley, or about 1/2 a mile around the curve of the mountain: both in thickly forested areas.
In the urban/suburban environment, or in a flat rural area, it is good to be aware of the overpenetration factor. Not only is it something to be aware of from the perspective of the bullet leaving the far side of your targets' body, but also from the perspective of how many slabs of sheetrock and 2x4's the bullet will go through before stopping. If the bullet expands well [jhp], it will also expand better through walls and not be as likely to kill your neighbors kid in its' sleep. I had to explain this to my neighbor who was thinking of getting a SKS for home defense. I pointed out that any miss would probably go through my walls and the two on the other side of me from him. A handgun or shotgun with shot [no slugs] would be less likely to take out the innocent.
Despite all of our assumptions about our abilities, it is a good idea to be aware of the miss factor also: especially as a single miss by us could result in more gun control legislation being proposed. Let's not give the idiots any more ammunition against us. I always recommend using the load that will stop the bad guy, but is appropriate to your environment. [I.E., I personally think .44 mag for home defense in a crowded city is overkill due to penetration and the recoil/second shot factor. .357 is about the max I am comfortable with until I am able to move out of this crowded community.]
Of course, these are just my opinions. Think about them and discard them or agree, I don't care. I just wanted to provoke thought.
In the urban/suburban environment, or in a flat rural area, it is good to be aware of the overpenetration factor. Not only is it something to be aware of from the perspective of the bullet leaving the far side of your targets' body, but also from the perspective of how many slabs of sheetrock and 2x4's the bullet will go through before stopping. If the bullet expands well [jhp], it will also expand better through walls and not be as likely to kill your neighbors kid in its' sleep. I had to explain this to my neighbor who was thinking of getting a SKS for home defense. I pointed out that any miss would probably go through my walls and the two on the other side of me from him. A handgun or shotgun with shot [no slugs] would be less likely to take out the innocent.
Despite all of our assumptions about our abilities, it is a good idea to be aware of the miss factor also: especially as a single miss by us could result in more gun control legislation being proposed. Let's not give the idiots any more ammunition against us. I always recommend using the load that will stop the bad guy, but is appropriate to your environment. [I.E., I personally think .44 mag for home defense in a crowded city is overkill due to penetration and the recoil/second shot factor. .357 is about the max I am comfortable with until I am able to move out of this crowded community.]
Of course, these are just my opinions. Think about them and discard them or agree, I don't care. I just wanted to provoke thought.
25 some years ago when I was in my "testing terminal performance by shooting at stuff and measuring expansion" days, I came to pretty much the same conclusion Mannlicher states.
When everything worked like it should, a JHP and a JSP were even up.
I'm wondering here how many are basing their opinon on what they've seen for themselves vs what they've read?
For the first couple of years of my reloading experience, the only jacketed bullets I could buy locally were JSPs. I loaded, shot and examined hundreds of them.
When everything worked like it should, a JHP and a JSP were even up.
I'm wondering here how many are basing their opinon on what they've seen for themselves vs what they've read?
For the first couple of years of my reloading experience, the only jacketed bullets I could buy locally were JSPs. I loaded, shot and examined hundreds of them.
I am not questioning anyone's observations regarding JSP vs. JHP expansion and penetration. For my own purposes, I still adhere to the old wisdom that a JSP is more likely to penetrate farther than a JHP. I can't substantiate it either way, nor do I care to.
However, it's interesting to note that much of the respected high-end revolver hunting ammo, i.e. the kind meant to crush through tough things like bears, boars and runaway locomotives, is of the non-hollowpoint variety.
However, it's interesting to note that much of the respected high-end revolver hunting ammo, i.e. the kind meant to crush through tough things like bears, boars and runaway locomotives, is of the non-hollowpoint variety.