Have a sauer 38h, chrome barrell and ivory grips. Left side of barrell has J.P Sauer & Sohn Suhl engraved on it also CAL. 7,65. Is this a first version or second version of the gun. It also has the German eagle engraved on the front of the trigger guard on the left and another eagle engraved on the right side under the serial number 304521 which is located behind the right grip. Looking for any info and approx value on this gun.
jp sauer model 38h info
- Thread starter harley1
- Start date
The only versions I know of were the original one, which has no thumb safety, and the later one that has. The safety was reportedly put on at the request of the Luftwaffe, which subsequently purchased many of those pistols. (Note that the safety is "backward" from that on the Walther and Mauser pistols, moving downward to the fire position.)
It is a good gun, and even the very late ones were pretty well made, though rough on the outside. The eagle is the German army acceptance stamp. The chrome plating and ivory (probably plastic) grips were put on the gun after it left German service; no German service guns were plated with nickel, chrome, silver or any other metal, or had other than issue grips.
The caliber 7.65mm is what we call the .32 ACP; ammunition should be available at any gunshop or sporting good store.
Jim
It is a good gun, and even the very late ones were pretty well made, though rough on the outside. The eagle is the German army acceptance stamp. The chrome plating and ivory (probably plastic) grips were put on the gun after it left German service; no German service guns were plated with nickel, chrome, silver or any other metal, or had other than issue grips.
The caliber 7.65mm is what we call the .32 ACP; ammunition should be available at any gunshop or sporting good store.
Jim
Sauer 38H Very early model
I recently purchased a Sauer 38H, with Serial Number 2666XX. It has NO eagle acceptance marks, but does have the thumb safety. The back of the rear sight is also painted the same red as the safety dot
This would seem to refute that the early ones did not have the safety. The Wehrmacht serials start at 271xxx, and the production of the model 38H started with about 260,000, as I understand it.
I recently purchased a Sauer 38H, with Serial Number 2666XX. It has NO eagle acceptance marks, but does have the thumb safety. The back of the rear sight is also painted the same red as the safety dot
This would seem to refute that the early ones did not have the safety. The Wehrmacht serials start at 271xxx, and the production of the model 38H started with about 260,000, as I understand it.
Jim Watson
New member
I always thought the LATE guns lacked the slide safety to save machining time as the war was going against the Germans.
I read that about the safety many years ago and never questioned it because the safety does have something of an afterthought about it and it isn't really needed since the hammer can be uncocked for safety if desired, using the cocking/decocking lever. I didn't think the safety was left off the late pistols, but the cocking lever was.
Jim
Jim
Hi J-Stewart,
the presence of a thumb safety on your 2666xx does not refute that the early ones did not have the safety.
In fact, the early ones in the SN range 260001 to app. 2636xx did not have a thumb safety. From 2636xx on they all had a thumb safety.
BTW: it is normal, that your 2666xx does not have the eagle/N, but the crown/N proof markings. The eagle/N proof marking was introduced on January 15, 1940. All pistols proofed before said date do have a crown/N. First one noted with eagle/N is in the 269xxx range (don't have the full number at hand presently).
Shown here is my 260214. You'll note it does not have the thumb safety.
Regards
Martin
P.S: For all interested in pre-war German pistols, I recommend Jan C. Still's internet forum:
http://luger.gunboards.com
the presence of a thumb safety on your 2666xx does not refute that the early ones did not have the safety.
In fact, the early ones in the SN range 260001 to app. 2636xx did not have a thumb safety. From 2636xx on they all had a thumb safety.
BTW: it is normal, that your 2666xx does not have the eagle/N, but the crown/N proof markings. The eagle/N proof marking was introduced on January 15, 1940. All pistols proofed before said date do have a crown/N. First one noted with eagle/N is in the 269xxx range (don't have the full number at hand presently).
Shown here is my 260214. You'll note it does not have the thumb safety.
Regards
Martin
P.S: For all interested in pre-war German pistols, I recommend Jan C. Still's internet forum:
http://luger.gunboards.com
Attachments
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Re: Sauer 2666xx, part deux
Hi, Sauerfan.
I just saw your answer about the Sauer safety... Fielen Danke. There are two other things that I am told changed with the military specification Model 38H: I undestand early models were machined zinc alloy and later were pressed steel...and that the rifling was reduced from 6 lands to 4 lands. The former were apparently more accurate.
Do you know at what S/N these changes were made? I also note that yours has the rayon-fiber-reinforced grips, where the "rounds" are dull, rather than shiney and scratched.
Best...J-Stewart
Hi, Sauerfan.
I just saw your answer about the Sauer safety... Fielen Danke. There are two other things that I am told changed with the military specification Model 38H: I undestand early models were machined zinc alloy and later were pressed steel...and that the rifling was reduced from 6 lands to 4 lands. The former were apparently more accurate.
Do you know at what S/N these changes were made? I also note that yours has the rayon-fiber-reinforced grips, where the "rounds" are dull, rather than shiney and scratched.
Best...J-Stewart
Hi J-Stewart,
it is correct, that the rifling changed from six to four lands. This was done…. hum, well, I don't have the necessary files at hand presently. As far as I remember, this was done around 264xxx or 265xxx, maybe a little later.
What do you mean with "zinc alloy"? Are you referring to the frames? Anyway, the early ones were completely made of steel. No zinc alloy at all. Also later examples were made of steel – except for the trigger, what really was made of zinc alloy. Change occurred in the…. well, I guess, 325xxx or so SN block. From 370xxx (?) on, also the floor plates of the magazines were made of zinc alloy.
Yes, the grips of my 260214 has a dull appearance, what is correct on early grips. The material is the same as on later grips. Compare with yours: inside is a symbol consisting of a "M" and a "D". This logo is a standard for German plastics. Inside this logo you'll find a number "43", what is the code number of the maker (Dynamit Nobel Abt. Kunststoffe, Troisdorf). You also will find the letter "S". This is the code for the material composition. The early dull looking grips also have the material composition "S" (later grips were marked with composition codes T1 or K). The dull appearance simply results from fine "pits" on the surface, which aren't present on later, shiny looking grips.
BTW: the red color on the rear sight on yours is original. The early examples did have front sights painted yellow and rear sights painted red. Around SN 270xxx the sights weren’t painted anymore.
Regards
Martin
it is correct, that the rifling changed from six to four lands. This was done…. hum, well, I don't have the necessary files at hand presently. As far as I remember, this was done around 264xxx or 265xxx, maybe a little later.
What do you mean with "zinc alloy"? Are you referring to the frames? Anyway, the early ones were completely made of steel. No zinc alloy at all. Also later examples were made of steel – except for the trigger, what really was made of zinc alloy. Change occurred in the…. well, I guess, 325xxx or so SN block. From 370xxx (?) on, also the floor plates of the magazines were made of zinc alloy.
Yes, the grips of my 260214 has a dull appearance, what is correct on early grips. The material is the same as on later grips. Compare with yours: inside is a symbol consisting of a "M" and a "D". This logo is a standard for German plastics. Inside this logo you'll find a number "43", what is the code number of the maker (Dynamit Nobel Abt. Kunststoffe, Troisdorf). You also will find the letter "S". This is the code for the material composition. The early dull looking grips also have the material composition "S" (later grips were marked with composition codes T1 or K). The dull appearance simply results from fine "pits" on the surface, which aren't present on later, shiny looking grips.
BTW: the red color on the rear sight on yours is original. The early examples did have front sights painted yellow and rear sights painted red. Around SN 270xxx the sights weren’t painted anymore.
Regards
Martin
Lands and grooves
Hi, Martin.
I am trapped in our red tape. California doesn't allow the purchase of more than one handgun every 30 days. I received a beautiful, little Ruger Bearcat 22 cal in December, so I have to wait to submit the paperwork for the Sauer. Then I have to wait 10 days, as a "cooling-off" period. I won't get to take the grips off or to look at the grooves until after 1/31. Jim Cate says mine should still have the six riflings at 266. I hope so.
Thanks again for all of the insight.
Best...JohnS.
Hi, Martin.
I am trapped in our red tape. California doesn't allow the purchase of more than one handgun every 30 days. I received a beautiful, little Ruger Bearcat 22 cal in December, so I have to wait to submit the paperwork for the Sauer. Then I have to wait 10 days, as a "cooling-off" period. I won't get to take the grips off or to look at the grooves until after 1/31. Jim Cate says mine should still have the six riflings at 266. I hope so.
Thanks again for all of the insight.
Best...JohnS.
my 38h
Hi, new to the forum, but I just wanted to chime in w/ some info on my pistol. Mine is a crown N proof, sn 261xxx, no thumb safety, and orig red rear, yellow front painted sights(paint somewhat dull and chipped) It has what I believe to be original dull grips, 95% orig finnish, some wear to f/s. On the rt side of slide is the roll marking "PATENT" and stamped just fwd of ejection port "Gewehr Richter"
Cottbus
don't know the meaning of that stamp? The pistol shoots well, cocks and decocks as it should. I'v had the pistol for about 28 yrs, traded a Schwinn Varsity 10 speed to my old partner when he retired off the Job
. Got the 38h and a CZ-24, he rode the bike for years and actually got into 100 mile races! He got the pistols from his deceased dad, who brought them back from Europe in WW2. He is a more practical guy who thought the rounds (32acp,380acp) too anemic for a backup gun, and being an old time cop, he preferred a wheelgun any way. Me, I just think they're great to collect and occassionally shoot.
Hi, new to the forum, but I just wanted to chime in w/ some info on my pistol. Mine is a crown N proof, sn 261xxx, no thumb safety, and orig red rear, yellow front painted sights(paint somewhat dull and chipped) It has what I believe to be original dull grips, 95% orig finnish, some wear to f/s. On the rt side of slide is the roll marking "PATENT" and stamped just fwd of ejection port "Gewehr Richter"
Cottbus
don't know the meaning of that stamp? The pistol shoots well, cocks and decocks as it should. I'v had the pistol for about 28 yrs, traded a Schwinn Varsity 10 speed to my old partner when he retired off the Job
. Got the 38h and a CZ-24, he rode the bike for years and actually got into 100 mile races! He got the pistols from his deceased dad, who brought them back from Europe in WW2. He is a more practical guy who thought the rounds (32acp,380acp) too anemic for a backup gun, and being an old time cop, he preferred a wheelgun any way. Me, I just think they're great to collect and occassionally shoot.Hi pooka,
you asked the question already in 2004 on Jan C. Still's forum, don't you?
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=2461
The answer is: "Gewehr Richter" was a gun dealer located in Cottbus. The complete name is:
A. Richter, Gewehrfabr(ik), Cottbus.
I found two ads of Gewehr Richter in a German hunting magazine "Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung" No. 24 of December 1918 and the other in "Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung" No 15 of May 20, 1920.
By the way: I liked to know the full serial number to ad to my database. Should the SN be in the range 261000 to 261300 I would be even more interested in the full serial number. Or, if you could post it, a photo of the right side of the pistol.
Best regards
Martin
you asked the question already in 2004 on Jan C. Still's forum, don't you?
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=2461
The answer is: "Gewehr Richter" was a gun dealer located in Cottbus. The complete name is:
A. Richter, Gewehrfabr(ik), Cottbus.
I found two ads of Gewehr Richter in a German hunting magazine "Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung" No. 24 of December 1918 and the other in "Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung" No 15 of May 20, 1920.
By the way: I liked to know the full serial number to ad to my database. Should the SN be in the range 261000 to 261300 I would be even more interested in the full serial number. Or, if you could post it, a photo of the right side of the pistol.
Best regards
Martin
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Hi JMC,
thanks for posting pics of your very nice Sauer 38. A nice pistol in fine condition with an unusual gun dealer's marking.
Regarding the grips: well, judging from the photos it seems that the left grips is original, while the right grip seems to be a repro grip.
Regards
Martin
thanks for posting pics of your very nice Sauer 38. A nice pistol in fine condition with an unusual gun dealer's marking.
Regarding the grips: well, judging from the photos it seems that the left grips is original, while the right grip seems to be a repro grip.
Regards
Martin
jeffmarchand
Inactive
Hi, I'm new to the forum and I was wondering if anyone could help with some information on a pistol that my grandfather brought back from his government paid trip to Europe. I'm posting in this thread because the pistol is very similar to the one that sauerfan and pooka posted pictures of with the exception that mine has a thumb safety and the mag release is checkered.
The markings are as follows:
Left slide
-J.P. Sauer & Son Suhl cal 7.65
Right slide
-patent
-there is also a eagle N stamp just bellow the rear sight
Left grip
-SuS (I'm assuming this stands for sauer und Sohn)
Right grip has no markings
Left reciever
-eagle C stamp on the trigger guard
Right receiver
-291736
-eagle N stamp below the serial number
There are also several "H"s stamped on the receiver barrel and slide.
The pistol apears to be in fairly good shape; no rust or scratches, but the finish is starting to wear on the front of the slide.
I also have two magazines and a holster for it. The markings on the holsters are:
From left to right on the belt loop side
-what appears to be a "C" wish some other symbol inside of it
-an eagle with what looks to be W0A13 underneath
-1942
-P. MOD. 27
Any information is appreciated, but I am most interested in when it was made, what the "H"s mean, approximate value, and anything you can tell me about the holster.
Thanks,
Jeff
The markings are as follows:
Left slide
-J.P. Sauer & Son Suhl cal 7.65
Right slide
-patent
-there is also a eagle N stamp just bellow the rear sight
Left grip
-SuS (I'm assuming this stands for sauer und Sohn)
Right grip has no markings
Left reciever
-eagle C stamp on the trigger guard
Right receiver
-291736
-eagle N stamp below the serial number
There are also several "H"s stamped on the receiver barrel and slide.
The pistol apears to be in fairly good shape; no rust or scratches, but the finish is starting to wear on the front of the slide.
I also have two magazines and a holster for it. The markings on the holsters are:
From left to right on the belt loop side
-what appears to be a "C" wish some other symbol inside of it
-an eagle with what looks to be W0A13 underneath
-1942
-P. MOD. 27
Any information is appreciated, but I am most interested in when it was made, what the "H"s mean, approximate value, and anything you can tell me about the holster.
Thanks,
Jeff
Hi JMC,
I liked to know that also. Original grips are hard to find. I wish you good luck!
Hi Jeff,
well, I'll try. You have a Sauer model H with police acceptance (eagle/C). The checkered mag button is typical for early police accepted Sauer Hs (there was a police decree of 1943 according to which the height of the mag button of police accepted Sauer Hs had to be lowered and to be chekered. This wasn't carried out on all police accepted Sauers making this checkered mag button rare).
Yes, the SuS stands for "Sauer und Sohn" (Sauer and Son).
The "H" markings are quiet normal for Sauer Hs over SN 273xxx approximately. Between February and March 1940 the designation of the pistol changed from "model 38" to "model H" (don't ask me what this stands for – there is no single pre-war document explaining this – there is only a lot of guessing, what leads to nothing).
Yours was made… well, late in 1940, maybe early in 1941. Unfortunately, there is no documentation of production dates. Only collector's assumptions.
The holster: this is no Sauer holster, but a holster for the Czech model 27. The marking on the back should be the CZ logo. And the Wehrmacht acceptance will be an eagle over WaA 76, I guess. See here:
http://www.tague.at/pistolen/en_index.htm?/pistolen/pages/en_cz27.htm
Value: well, as I am German and being not familiar with the US market, I can't tell. A major factor will be (as always) the condition.
Regards
Martin
I liked to know that also. Original grips are hard to find. I wish you good luck!
Hi Jeff,
well, I'll try. You have a Sauer model H with police acceptance (eagle/C). The checkered mag button is typical for early police accepted Sauer Hs (there was a police decree of 1943 according to which the height of the mag button of police accepted Sauer Hs had to be lowered and to be chekered. This wasn't carried out on all police accepted Sauers making this checkered mag button rare).
Yes, the SuS stands for "Sauer und Sohn" (Sauer and Son).
The "H" markings are quiet normal for Sauer Hs over SN 273xxx approximately. Between February and March 1940 the designation of the pistol changed from "model 38" to "model H" (don't ask me what this stands for – there is no single pre-war document explaining this – there is only a lot of guessing, what leads to nothing).
Yours was made… well, late in 1940, maybe early in 1941. Unfortunately, there is no documentation of production dates. Only collector's assumptions.
The holster: this is no Sauer holster, but a holster for the Czech model 27. The marking on the back should be the CZ logo. And the Wehrmacht acceptance will be an eagle over WaA 76, I guess. See here:
http://www.tague.at/pistolen/en_index.htm?/pistolen/pages/en_cz27.htm
Value: well, as I am German and being not familiar with the US market, I can't tell. A major factor will be (as always) the condition.
Regards
Martin
jeffmarchand
Inactive
Thanks Martin!
I have one last question, is it normal for police accepted pistols to also have the military acceptance stamp?
Thanks,
Jeff
I have one last question, is it normal for police accepted pistols to also have the military acceptance stamp?
Thanks,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
no, eighter police acceptance (eagle/C or eagle/F) OR military acceptance (eagle/37). The other marking eagle/N is just a proof marking, having nothing to do with military or police acceptance. Any model H made after January 15, 1940 has this eagle/N.
Regards
Martin
jeffmarchand
Inactive
ok, thanks for the clarification.
Jeff
Jeff