Jose Padilla convicted: 17 years

[applesanity]

Convicted terrorism supporter gets 17-year sentence (CNN)

Kinda light for what we are told he was aiming to do, yeah?

Some considerations & highlights from the story...

"I do find that the conditions were so harsh for Mr. Padilla ... they warrant consideration in the sentencing in this case," the judge [Marcia Cooke] said.

...

But Cooke said that as serious as the conspiracy was, there was no evidence linking the men to specific acts of terrorism anywhere.

"There is no evidence that these defendants personally maimed, kidnapped or killed anyone in the United States or elsewhere," she said.

...

Jurors in the criminal case never heard Padilla's full history, which according to U.S. officials included a graduation from the al Qaeda terror camp, a plot to detonate the "dirty bomb" and a scheme to fill apartments with natural gas and blow them up. Much of what Padilla supposedly told interrogators during his long detention as an enemy combatant could not be used in court because he had no access to a lawyer and was not read his constitutional rights.

Personally, I don't see the connection between being treated "harshly" in prison and getting a lighter sentence.

Guess the feds mess this one up real good. (or please do correct me if the CNN has unfair biases)

 

[Pat H]

The real bottom line in this case is Jose Padilla committed no crimes, but will serve 17 years in prison just in case he was thinking about committing crimes.

Further, is sets no precedents about government torture of prisoners, American by birth and by residence, in the federal prison system, or denial of habeas corpus or to council of his choosing.

This conviction is wrong from just about every aspect.

This type of conviction always has me asking, just who were these jurors?

 

[JuanCarlos]

The real bottom line in this case is Jose Padilla committed no crimes, but will serve 17 years in prison just in case he was thinking about committing crimes.

I think it's more that he was planning to commit crimes. A subtle difference, I suppose, but I'd say it's an important one. I believe it's the entire reason God invented conspiracy charges.

Personally, I don't see the connection between being treated "harshly" in prison and getting a lighter sentence.

Well, for starters the prosecutors were objecting that he was receiving credit at all for his time already served, which considering just how long he was held without charges is pretty ludicrous. As for the harshness of treatment being taken into consideration, I'd say that (hypothetically, not saying it was the case here) being beaten every day should probably count as "more" time than sitting on a cot watching TV. His time in military custody probably fell somewhere in between.

Once you factor in the 3+ years already served, you figure he just got 20 years for conspiracy charges, which isn't exactly light...considering that he never actually "hurt" anybody.

Much of what Padilla supposedly told interrogators during his long detention as an enemy combatant could not be used in court because he had no access to a lawyer and was not read his constitutional rights.

Yeah, oops. Newsflash: US citizens arrested on US soil have rights. Whodathunkit?

 

[625]

The question is: How do we prevent the Executive branch from doing something like this in the future? I'm all for nailing terrorists to the wall, but this administration couldn't have handled this case any worse.

 

[SteelCore]

If someone is busted for planning a mass murder and convicted based on solid evidence, then I have no problem whatsoever with him going to prison for a long time.

HOWEVER, I have serious problems with people being held without access to a lawyer or other legal protections. From everything I've heard, the Constitution was basically thrown out the window as far as Padilla was concerned.

The greatest enemy of the US Constitution is the US government. Once the American people wake up and realize that, maybe they'll start demanding changes. But I'm not so optimistic. I think most people will happily give up just about all their freedoms as long as they think it will make them live forever. I, for one, would rather die in a terrorist bombing (as unlikely as that is) than have America continue to keep people in isolation for years and subject them to waterboarding (or is that "freedomboarding"?). But cowardice is rampant in this nation, and all most people care about anymore is Fatherland Security. Whatever happened to "give me liberty, or give me death"?

The often-quoted saying attributed to Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety," has never been more relevant in this country's history than it is today.

 

[STAGE 2]

The real bottom line in this case is Jose Padilla committed no crimes, but will serve 17 years in prison just in case he was thinking about committing crimes.

And this is why people don't take anything you say seriously (and by extention, your candidate of choice). Conspiring to commit a crime IS breaking the law. Furthermore, conspiracy requires MORE than simply thinking about committing a crime. It requires an overt act by the party himself or an agreement for a co-conspirator to overtly act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

Bottom line, your dishonest assessment is completely wrong. Padilla wasn't sitting in his apartment minding his own business when the thought police showed up.

This conviction is wrong from just about every aspect.

You're right. They should have tried him for treason and then shot him.

Whatever wrong was comitted here (and the administration did commit a wrong in not giving Padilla his day in court) has been remedied. Padilla was tried by a jury of his peers and they found him guilty. Because Padilla was wronged doesn't mean he should be absolved of his crimes.

This type of conviction always has me asking, just who were these jurors?

They were upstanding citizens who have no tolerance for terrorists. You see these people reached this verdict WITHOUT hearing Padilla's full history, which included a graduation from the al Qaeda terror camp, a plot to detonate the "dirty bomb" and a scheme to fill apartments with natural gas and blow them up.

For months and months now, people who hate this administration and fringe wackos have been holding up this case as an example of how the government can snatch john Q public from his home and throw him away for life. Padilla was their poster boy for a "wronged citizen".

In reality, Padilla was just some guy who worked for al quaeda and was sloppy about it. So it seems that the only americans being snatched in the dark of night are those who graduated from al quaeda university.

I'm just fine with that.

 

[Alex45ACP]

So it seems that the only americans being snatched in the dark of night are those who graduated from al quaeda university.

... for now.

 

[tube_ee]

he issue is not Padilla...

It's power.

Padilla (finally) got his day in court, and he lost, and has been punished. I've got no issues with that.

But the fact that an American citizen can be arrested in America, turned over to military custody, and locked away for years without any access to a court until such time as the government decides to let him, based only on that government's say-so... Yeah, I've got issues with that. Even if the guy was a scumbag.

Sorry, but you're not a criminal, or even a terrorist, simply because the government says that you are. You are one when a jury of your peers says that you are. If that principle does not apply to everyone, it applies to no one.

Nobody that I ever heard put Jose Padilla up as some sort of hero. What we did say, and I at least still say, is that what was done to him, violates every principle of law and justice that we as a nation hold dear. The government simply should not have the power to do what they did. Not even if they really, really want to. Not even if they're proven right in the end.

There's such a thing as too much power. Even if it's used for good. Padilla may not be the ideal case to make that point with, since he was eventually convicted, but it's the case that's available, and the point is still valid.

--Shannon

 

[STAGE 2]

Mega +1

I'd say yes the jury is a bunch of government rubber stamps, but the judge is a despicable traitor who should be removed from the bench immediately. "Judges" like this are why the federal "courts" have become nothing but a sham and a short trip on the pre planned route to prison.

Are you serious? You think its perfectly acceptable to plan and organize mass killings? You think people should be able to work for al quaeda with no consequence?

Give me a break.

 

[Bruxley]

Quote:

So it seems that the only americans being snatched in the dark of night are those who graduated from al quaeda university.

... for now.

If I recall the Supreme Court found that this practice was unacceptable and that is WHY Padillia got the trial instead of the enemy combatant status so the practice isn't going to repeat because now it is established that it's not going to fly. Now if it's done the guy WILL get a free pass.

 

[Wildalaska]

I'd say yes the jury is a bunch of government rubber stamps, but the judge is a despicable traitor who should be removed from the bench immediately.

Right, he should have ordered Padilla shot

Or let go

Depending on your agenda, of course.

Hmmm

Traitor indeed.

WildhaveyouhuggedyourortgiestodayAlaska ™

 

[pitz96]

The real bottom line in this case is Jose Padilla committed no crimes, but will serve 17 years in prison just in case he was thinking about committing crimes.

I don't know every detail of his case, but it does seem like he was sentenced for what George Orwell called a "thought crime". If Padilla actually gathered any material for the imagined dirty bomb, perhaps I'd think differently. It just seems like a US citizen should have been granted the customary Constitutionally guaranteed rights of someone accused of a crime, with normal access to lawyers, courts, etc.

 

[Shadi Khalil]

Absolutle fear.

thats what i feel when i think that for my thoughts I could spent 17 years in prison. while padia was locked up he was subjected to all sorts of torture. they gave him drugs during interogation, things like LSD and PCP. When did you ever trust anyone on LSD or PCP to give straight answers? Is this the type of intellegeince that is passed out to people in the field? How could anyone possibbly accept this conviction? whats next? when we accpet this sort of thing we are just one more step closer to allowing something worse.

 

[STAGE 2]

I don't know every detail of his case

You should have stopped there.

while padia was locked up he was subjected to all sorts of torture. they gave him drugs during interogation, things like LSD and PCP. When did you ever trust anyone on LSD or PCP to give straight answers?

Any verifiable evidence to support this claim?

 

[DonR101395]

Jose Padilla American hero:barf:

 

[44capnball]

Are you serious? You think its perfectly acceptable to plan and organize mass killings? You think people should be able to work for al quaeda with no consequence?

Much as I think Padilla is a turd, you're doing the same thing prosecutors do when their evidence is weak. Prosecutor shows jury a photo of a crime victim. "Look how horrible this crime was, you HAVE to convict the defendent, you can't let them get away with this!"

Hmm, what's missing here?

Whether the defendent actually did it. If you keep beating a guy til he says what you want, all you know for sure is, he said what you want. Too bad what he said doesn't count for 2 cents.

Jose Padilla is a fat headed moron. Now it seems he's a fat headed moron that babbles and drools on himself. Torture and denial of due process don't strengthen a case, they weaken it, real bad. I can't stand people like Padilla but even I start to wonder, if they really had a good case against him, why be so shady about it? They either wanted to set a precedent for detaining other people without due process, they lacked solid evidence, or both.

Understand, the more heinous a thing someone's accused of, the more is at stake for both sides.

Try this on.

Guy is suspected of being al qaeda. He gets taken off a street corner. He gets a beating, maybe more. Thrown in a hole, no access to lawyer. Soon they start to realize he wasn't as big a catch as they wanted. It happens. You say no problem, we'll cut him loose or try a mild charge. Your boss says "We can't, this could look bad. Some guy we grabbed off a street corner is not gonna cost me my career, my family, my house. He's our man, a top al qaeda operative, I don't care what anybody says. By the time we get done with him, he'll confess to anything we like."

It's called saving face or CYA and it counts for more than I wager you'll admit.

It's also how an ordinary gun owner can go from having a malfunctioning AR 15 to being a machine gun dealing terrorist fiend thats in league with satan.

Once they go into CYA, you might as well have Mickey Mouse and Goofy preside over the court, their man is still going to jail.

Innocent people exonerated on death row, what does the DA say? "Nope, he's guilty, shouldn't go free". CYA. I guess it beats looking in the mirror and asking why you deserve to have a good job and a good life, after you took an innocent man's life away.

People who trash the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments while saying they support the 2nd, are as bad as people who say they support the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th while trashing the 2nd.

 

[STAGE 2]

Much as I think Padilla is a turd, you're doing the same thing prosecutors do when their evidence is weak. Prosecutor shows jury a photo of a crime victim. "Look how horrible this crime was, you HAVE to convict the defendent, you can't let them get away with this!"

How do you have any idea what prosecutors do? Do you have a law degree? Have you ever tried a case?

I shouldn't have to repeat the fact that Padilla was convicted WITHOUT the jury hearing of a majority of his terrorist ties. That alone should tell you right there that the evidence wasn't weak.

People who trash the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments while saying they support the 2nd, are as bad as people who say they support the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th while trashing the 2nd.

Again, more sympathetic BS. You can't find me saying anywhere that Padilla shouldn't have gotten a trial because I agree he should have. However no matter how much you want to malign it, the system worked. Padilla pleaded his case, recieved a trial, and was judged to be the dirty terrorist that he is by a jury of his peers.

Because someone's rights have been violated doesn't mean that they should not be judged for their crimes.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I shouldn't have to repeat the fact that Padilla was convicted WITHOUT the jury hearing of a majority of his terrorist ties. That alone should tell you right there that the evidence wasn't weak.

I'd agree with this.

Again, more sympathetic BS. You can't find me saying anywhere that Padilla shouldn't have gotten a trial because I agree he should have. However no matter how much you want to malign it, the system worked. Padilla pleaded his case, recieved a trial, and was judged to be the dirty terrorist that he is by a jury of his peers.

I think "the system worked" is a bit of an exaggeration. The system eventually corrected itself, maybe. And perhaps it didn't matter that the system did at one point fail because he was found guilty in the end. But if by some chance he had actually been acquitted I'd say the length of his imprisonment (assuming you take the acquittal at face value...obviously he was guilty as sin) would have been a colossal failure of the system. And assuming that acquittal is considered to have been a possibility going into the trial (which we must), that means that the events preceding the trial were a failure of the system as well.

I'd say that given the particulars, the end result was acceptable. He was convicted, and the time spent in detention prior his conviction (over five and a half years total) was taken into consideration for sentencing. And I suppose if we had to actually deal with this issue and get clarification, I suppose this would be a perfectly good guy to do it with. But I'd be a lot happier (and have felt a lot more secure in my rights) if he had been tried, convicted, and sentenced a few years ago.

EDIT:

Because someone's rights have been violated doesn't mean that they should not be judged for their crimes.

This I'd agree with as well. But just because somebody was found guilty of their crimes doesn't mean their rights weren't violated. I guess I'm just the kind of person who actually lingers on the question of what we would have done, and what it would have meant, if he had been found (or actually been) innocent. I'd like to think that something like this could only happen to "bad guys," but if that was actually the case we wouldn't need all those pesky rights anyway.

 

[Pat H]

Here's an interesting take on the Padilla conviction, one with which I'm mostly in agreement with.

January 23, 2008
Padilla's Sentence Should Shock and Disgust All Americans
by Andy Worthington

The news that U.S. citizen José Padilla has received a prison sentence of 17 years and four months should provoke outrage in the United States, although it is unlikely that there will be much more than a whimper of dissent.

The former gang member and convert to Islam – whose arrest in May 2002 was trumpeted by then-Attorney General John Ashcroft as that of a "known terrorist " who was "exploring a plan" to detonate a radioactive "dirty bomb" in a U.S. city – was once regarded as one of the most dangerous terrorists ever apprehended on American soil. Almost six years later, as he received his sentence, he was not actually accused of lifting a finger to harm even a single U.S. citizen.

While this is shocking enough in and of itself, Padilla's sentence – in what at least one perceptive commentator called "the most important case of our lifetimes" – is particularly shocking because it sends a clear message to the president of the United States that he can, if he wishes, designate a U.S. citizen as an "enemy combatant," hold him without charge or trial in a naval brig for 43 months, and torture him – through the use of prolonged sensory deprivation and solitary confinement – to such an extent that, as the psychiatrist Dr. Angela Hegarty explained after spending 22 hours with Padilla, "What happened at the brig was essentially the destruction of a human being's mind."

Padilla's warders had another take on his condition, describing him as "so docile and inactive that he could be mistaken for 'a piece of furniture,'" but the most detailed analysis of the effects of his torture was, again, provided by Hegarty in an interview last August with Democracy Now!

Juan Gonzalez: "And have you dealt with someone who had been in isolation for such a long period of time before?"

Dr. Angela Hegarty: "No. This was the first time I ever met anybody who had been isolated for such an extraordinarily long period of time. I mean, the sensory deprivation studies, for example, tell us that without sleep, especially, people will develop psychotic symptoms, hallucinations, panic attacks, depression, suicidality within days. And here we had a man who had been in this situation, utterly dependent on his interrogators, who didn't treat him all that nicely, for years. And apart from – the only people I ever met who had such a protracted experience were people who were in detention camps overseas, that would come close, but even then they weren't subjected to the sensory deprivation. So, yes, he was somewhat of a unique case in that regard."
Read the complete article

 

[Wildalaska]

More propaganda from a suspect source.

WildhaveyouhuggedyourM&PtodayAlaska ™