John Browning-1911 vs High Power

T

Tropical Z

New member
Frequently, i read an article proclaiming the 1911 to be the single best handgun design ever and then turn the page to see that John Browning designed the Hi-Power to correct the deficiencies he saw in the 1911.What gives here? I know that the H.P design was finished by others,but what insight does anyone else have on this.Maybe Mr. Browning was a perfectionist and knew there was always room for improvement.Maybe some smarty pants TFL member has the ultimate answer! :cool:
 
Well,

Here are the improvements,

1 First pistol with a double row magazine. You got 13 rounds instead of 7.

2 Improved locking system. the link system was replaced with the cam lock system that is still used today by most makers.

3 Straight line trigger sysytem replace with a lever, bar trigger system,which eliminates trigger surge and a lot of full auto problems.

4 The bushing and recoil spring plug were replaced with a contained system.

5 A magazine safety was installed (I know some folks dont care for this)

6 The 9mm cartridge, for various reasons, is more reliable than the 45 acp round (I know some folks dont care for this either)

Being a European gun, it never got as popular here as the 45. I would have to say,however,the Hi Power was and still is the best pistol ever designed,and is for sure the best single action auto ever designed.

Too bad Browning quit making them. Oh well, I guess thats progress.
 
I believe that Browning was in the unique position of having to avoid violating his own patents, as he sold design patents to both Colt and FN concurrently. High Power better? Hmmm. Don't think so. Different, yes.

IIRC, he stopped selling to Winchester when he tried to get a royalty agreement as opposed to an outright sale on his world renowned Automatic 5 shotgun. That is about where Winchester went down hill and pretty much never recovered.:(
 
The patents were not a problem, due to the agreement between Colt and FN to divide up the world and not compete.

But a couple of thoughts. The HP trigger system was made necessary by the wide magazine, since a stirrup type trigger bar would have required that the grip be made even wider. It is far inferior to the Model 1911 system and I am pretty sure Browning knew that, but felt he had no choice. Today, we have even wider grips on guns using the stirrup, but pioneers do not go in for overkill if they want acceptance.

The mag safety and caliber were what potential buyers wanted. No nation in continental Europe at that time was likely to buy a new military pistol chambered for the .45 ACP. (Only Norway had ever done so in the past, and British experience with .455 autos had been limited and not especially satisfactory.)

Jim
 
Eger,

I was at the Browning Website just a couple of days ago and they have a statement that says they will still be producing the Hi Power. FN will still manufacture them as in the past. I also noticed that the BHP MK III was approved for sale (put on the "safe" gun list) in Kalifornia on Monday of this week. So as far as I can tell, Browning will still be marketing them to some extent. Whether or not that continues is another story. I haven't seen many new ones around even before the "approved list" BS started here in CA on 1/1/01.

Russ
 
What I wanna know, and may never know, is how much of the HP is JM Browning and how much is D Saive?
 
The Hi-Power was designed for the European market, not the American market. Some of the design reflects this.

Using the cam-lock system was a definite improvement.
 
I don't believe JMB designed the Hi-Power to correct deficiencies in the 1911. I believe he designed it because the French Army had put out a contract calling for most of the qualities the Hi-Power would have (High-capacity magazine, magazine disconnect, etc.).

In the same fashion, the 1911 was designed mostly to meet a U.S. Army contract. I think JMB was just giving his large customers what they wanted in hopes of selling a lot of guns to them.

It would sure be interesting to sit down with him and hear his opinions on what the perfect semiauto handgun would be if he were allowed to design it to his specifications.
 
The high capacity magazine was Saive's, not Browning's. The trigger mechanism of the HP is certainly its weakest point, relative to the 1911. The 9mm cartridge is inferior as a service cartridge. The cam locking, elimination of the grip safety, and integration of the mainspring housing into the frame of the HP are the only real advances that I can see. I'll agree that the HP is not really better or worse, just different.
 
Wait a second. What about the size of the bang?

Nobody has said anything about the .45 v. the 9mm cartridge. Aren't we judging the soup by the shape of the spoon? Isn't the real question which gun you would pick in the real world? "Deficiencies" in the design of the 1911 relative to the High Power include:

1. "Higher power" cartridge.
2. Dissassembles completely with no tools.
3. About a jillion sources for information, service, parts and accessories.
4. Comes in three sizes.

Regards.
 
Hi, Ledbetter and folks,

As someone pointed out, Browning (or whoever) designed the HP to meet military requirements in Europe in the early 1930's, not to satisfy American 1911 fans in the year 2001.

Jim
 
Twilight Zone Alert

Well, Jim, JMB was remarkably psychic in his GP design for the '30s because IIRC he died in 1926!! :eek:

Ledbetter: That the 45 ACP is better than the 9mm is generally accepted and almost goes without saying on TFL but thanks for bringing it up.:cool:
 
John Browning-1911vs High Power

Let me state first I own an love both pistols. My first love has and always will be the High Power but I am not living in a dream world either. This is what I have found in regards to owning both types of weapons:

Safety- Browning-Saive actally made it worse in the High Power.
It is neither as large or as positive as in the 1911.

Trigger- Again it is worse. The reset is too long for extreme rapid fire. Most new users when trying to rapid fire a high power suddenly find the gun has stopped firing. They then relax and release the trigger all the way and the gun then rearms itself.

Strip down: Again totaly inferior to the 1911. It cannot be stripped to the frame without tools.

Bushing: No bushing in the High Power. Again this is a step backward. It is a lot cheaper to replace a bushing instead of a slide or barrel.

Barrel lock up: An improvement over the 1911. The High Power design does away with the inferior swinging link system and its accuracy problems due to loose fit. Hand fitting with close tolerance of course corrects the swing link accuracy problem.

Balance: Again it goes to the High Power. I have found only the Sig P210 can compare to the feel of a High Power in the Hand. Although in all fairness the 1911 balances much better than most of the worlds hanguns.

Caliber: I will stay out of the big versus little argument but the High Power holds almost twice as many rounds while the 1911 shoots the bigger bullet.

Recoil: The nod goes to the High Power , lets face it with full power loads people shoot lighter recoiling guns better. No one is a superman and recoil fatigue affects everyone.

Accuracy: In its stock military form the accuracy was much better in the high power but both guns can be made into real tack drivers if closer tolerances are adhered to in the manufacturing process.

Hammer design: Although I love the rowel hammer I have to admit the spur hammer of the 1911 is much easier to cock and yes I know that the later, much later models of the high power finally did come with the spur hammer.

Reliablity: This is a difficult one but in general terms both guns are very reliable but with the easy strip down of the 1911 I would give it higher marks as far as being able to clean the weapon under very severe combat conditions.

World acceptance: Here the High Power was a phenominal success while few nations beat the door down to purchase 1911's.

Grip size: Here both guns fail the test. Although I have very long fingers even I cannot reach the slide release of the orginal 1911. Many people with shorter fingers especially women in todays military find the grip circumference of both pistols much too large. Todays military would have been better off with a single stack magazine weapon and one that was much smaller. It would have fitted the average soldiers hand and when necessary could have been easily carried concealed when the situation warranted. Today's military Berretta has many of the same faults as the orginal 1911. It is simply to large for the average recruit to comfortable operate and use.

Grace and beauty: Here the high power has few equals and although I though for years that the 1911 was somewhat less than elegant in the looks department it is a raving beauty compared to the newer high tech sheet metal pistols and plastic hideous horrors that now haunt todays gun market.

In conclusion I will state the High Power is my favorite hand gun with the 1911 running a close second and if the chips were truly down without hesitation I would carry the 1911 evern though I like it a lot less. W.R.
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread, but some things are more subjective. Some people prefer the grip and balance of the HP. For me it is the 1911 with a flat mainspring housing. No handgun that I have ever held fits my hand as well.
For a long time I have wondered if JMB actually did design the HP. As a machine it is inferior to the 1911 in all but the barrel lockup and the elimination of the grip safety. The double stack magazine might make it more desirable but does not improve it as a machine. As has been mentioned the safety is not nearly as positive as the 1911 and the trigger system including the magazine disconnect is a big step backward.
The BHP still is a fantastic pistol, but compared to the 1911 it is not an evolutionary improvement as some would believe.
 
Ed, and other guys,

If you can get a copy of Handguns of the World by Edward C. Ezell, under Belgian guns you can see photos of many of the models hand filed out of raw steel by JMB. IIRC, the High Power as conceived by JMB was a hammerless (striker fired) and prolly single stack pistol. As somebody correctly noted, JMB designed his Grande Puissance (Euro name) to the French specs trying to win a contract bid. They ungratefully went with the Petter design, BTW, which ultimately resulted in the SIG/Neuhausen, or as more familiarly known here, the SIG 210.

BTW, Wild Romanian, Thank you for a thoughtful and erudite post!
 
The 9mm round in the Hi-Power was a European Spec. You weren't going to sell a lot of .45 ACP in Europe then or now.

The two of the three basic sizes of 1911 came much later. The refinements that made the 1911 accurate and reliable with hollowpoints also came much later.

Under refinements is also the wider safety levers we have now. The original safety on the Hi-Power was laughable though.

A bushing is easier to replace than a slide, but how many of us have worn out a slide?

A properly designed magazine is the only take-down tool a Hi-Power needs, similar to that of the CZ-75.

If the best features were taken from each, it truely would be a JMB masterpiece.

With that out of my system, I have a 1911 and not a Hi-Power, although I hope to get on someday. It is a Beretta that awaits troubles next to my bed.
 
Actually, the original GP round may have been that crappy 7.65 French Long. You know the French, they always have to be different... 9mm Parabellum was mainly a German thing till after WWII except for the Limeys who used it in their Sten.:rolleyes:
 
Wild Romanian:

A couple of points off your email:

Controls on a pistol should really depend on how they work with you when drawing (in a real hurry) and shooting. Easily accessible controls do not assist in this if they do not help you shoot.

Hammer design: Easier to cock? I have a 1911 that has not been uncocked for a couple of years, loaded, unloaded, or firing. There is no reason to cock a 1911 as it should not be uncocked - at least with a round in the chamber!! (And if you didn't have one in the chamber you're in no hurry, or if the hammer isn't cocked, you need to rack the slide get to it!).

World Acceptance: I'm not calling people who choose the 9mm wussies; but the European police sensibilities are hurt by 45acp and shotguns - they see it as ultra barbaric (although seeing cops with MP5s does not scare them so much). The 45ACP puts the 1911 out of the question in Europe.

Grip size: Take the grips off your 1911. . . . THAT is the true grip size and it's tiny, try it that way. Okay, you want smaller? Install a pair of AFS Slimtech. Some double-stack guns claim sub-1911 grip size; but they're counting the oversize slabs in the mix. Of course, the Berretta is in its own league here - besides width is the trigger pull length - one has to pull the world's nastiest double-action trigger at that distance - it must be because I'm only 6 foot 5.

Slide release positoning wrt. grip: You're not supposed to be able to reach the slide release! If you have a gun where you can push the slide release with your right thumb take it back to the store - wrt. what I said before, choose the grips that let you get off 7/13 quality shots as easily as possible, not reach unnecessary buttons. I can still recall the horrors of my time with an extended slide release - oh, the humanity! Your controls that are in reach should let you draw, safety off (if necessary) and score accurate hits. A slide stop (yes, it's a stop, not a release, although we can use it as such if we like) that is within reach will get knocked on while firing - maybe not when we settle into our favorite target stance but in real life rolling in the dirt confusion. Want to drop the slide? Use that other hand that reached for the mag while it's settling into firing position, or your thumb. You don't want to be able to touch that thing while shooting! Yeah, right thumb MAY save you a nanosecond on the reload (unlikely with good technique as after ramming the mag home you have a left thumb right in position). I hypothesise that if a fight is going to require a reload, it's certainly going to require 7 well-placed without a premature slidelock!

That said, the Beretta has something for folk who want to accomplish the unnecessary (and intrusive!) in a real hurry, a big fat ambidextrous click-me-fast-and-look-cool-when-the-gunfight-is-over-in-Lethal-Weapon decocker. Now THAT is something cool to do with one's weak hand while wounded in a gunfight - maybe it needs a nice spur hammer to match :)

BTW - the mag catch is another thing I don't want accessible from a firing grip. Have a friend with a Kahr 40 that drops its mag while shooting (just far enough to not feed).


Battler.
 
1911 design-Most size efficient pistol for caliber.
P-35 Best 9mm multistack.

Both guns have stood the test of time and the worlds largest war.

I have worn out a bushingless slide, PPK .22. Remilled the slide and installed a bushing. Must be due to the fixed barrel.

Cheers,

ts
 
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