JFK

J

John/az2

New member
I just saw the movie, "JFK" last night and I was rivited through the whole thing! I have only heard on occation that the whole thing was a cover-up, but is it really as expansive as the movie made it to be?

How much of that film is verifiable?

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 
The movie "JFK", by Oliver Stone's admission, took an artistic license to present information which he believed was best told through the vehicle of Jim Garrison's trial of Clay Shaw. Two books were listed in the credits of the movie, Garrison's personal account of his story(I don't know if you're aware of it, but in a piece of comic irony Garrison got to play the role of Earl Warren in the Stone movie)and a second book by a Univ. of Texas professor which purported to be a sort of summary of the literature on the assasination. Both books were, in my judgment, weak, very weak. By far the most rigorous scientific effort at analyzing the JKF assasination is "Best Evidence" by David Lifton. This book recounts the young scientist's acknowledged obsession with the assasination and his progression over literally decades from one theory to the next. The value of his book is that he has done 99% of the "homework" and gives a hard-nosed critique of all the theories that Kennedy was assasinated by: Castro, Anti-Castro forces, the CIA, the Mafia, the oil industry, the military industrial complex. In turn, he rejects most of these and concludes that we don't know who did it. He argues, with compelling force to me, that the Warren Report was basically a placebo designed to keep the animals (us) from rioting. Why tell them some evil force did it because then you'll have to launch WWIII. Better tell them some 24 year old got depressed and blew away the most powerful man in the world with a 10 dollar mail order rifle. Lifton's most controversial finding, though, is the one which provides the title for his book. You may or may not be aware that JFK's brain is "missing." Read that again, slowly. The brain of the 35th president, which received one or more shots, is not available for inspection. Period. Paragraph. Full stop. The govt takes the position that they gave the brain back to Bobby Kennedy (whom you may recall is not available to confirm or deny)a few years later. But, most importantly, Lifton cites hand-written notes by FBI agents present at the autopsy (conducted by a Navy MD who had never previously conducted a homocide, and who destroyed his own hand-written notes of his autopsy). The FBI agents at Bethesda Naval Hospital recorded the doctor's initial observation that the occipital nerves and brain stem had already been severed when he examined the head, and that the brain had been "operated on." No surgery on the brain was performed by the doctors in Dallas. The brain had a long incission on the left side, parallel to the center(running front to back)and extending deep enough to pass thru the entire brain. In other words, the brain was opened. Why? To remove the bullets. Why? Because if they were pointed from front to back the theory of a shooter from the rear goes poof. Who shot JFK? Lifton's say: you tell me who took the bullets out, I will tell you who put the bullets in. Fantastic?, certainly. Contradicted?, by no one in the eighteen years since it's been out. A reading list available at Amazon.com follows: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451175735/qid =929107923/sr=1-3/002-9860133-5276241
 
Also, if you have The History Channel, check out the series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". Spooky stuff there.

Also, if you're reading this, you'll probably also enjoy their series "Tales of the Gun".
 
Does anyone remember the movie EXECUTIVE ACTION? It originally used the Zapruder film, but was later edited IMHO with a re-enactment.
If JFK was shot from the rear, why is most of the blood and brain splatter blowing out the back of his head? It showed minor backsplash (for want of a better term) at the front of JFK's head and major exit (?) splatter at the back of his head.
That has alway bothered me, from the first time I saw the Zapruder film I've had strong doubts that Oswald did it.
Just a thought.
Paul B.
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
 
From: Ivan8883 6-11-99 906PMEDT Guys,no doubt in my mind that there was a frontAL SHOT: Zapruder film shows that clearly. It looks like Oswald was some type of a government agent and was set up as the killer. The irony is that Lee probably was a very patriotic American working in a minor role for our government.He had the highest clearance in Marine Corp.Jim Garrison was on the right trackbut came a bit short infinding the real people behind JFK Murder.MAFIA used Corsican hit men,I believebut the real people behind assasination probably were Isreali Massad.Kennedy told Isreal not to develope the Atomic Bomb .He would not tolerate itand in fact had a plan to Alsohit Chicom nuclear facilities just before he died. Johnson of coarse allowed Isreal to take out of this country the plutonium needed to make nukesand of coarse never touched Chicom nuclear facilities.If you read Michael Collins Pipers book, "Final Judgment" you will be convinced of Massad leadership in JFK assasination. JFK, who had human faults like us all, stepped on the toes of many powerful forces in America(Organized crime which through his father got him in power,Federal Reserve Banksterswho fearedJFK's attempt to return to a honest money system, Isreal who wanted the Atomic Bomb,and military industrial criminals whowanted Vietnam to escalate(President Ike warned America about military industrial complex just before he left office) JFK, Ibelieve , wanted to rise abovehis fathers image of a shady character,and he paid with his life.This country has been on a down hill slide ever since. Ivan
 
We saw some photos, and some films in my academy regarding homicides, and wound balistics... That grainy black and white film clearly indicates that it was a frontal shot. Oswald may have got a hit in, but looing at the angles... it was someone in front of the motorcade, either on ground or only second story level at the highest. Maybe about the elevation of the GRASSY KNOLL.


I dont know if you guys have seen the British Comedy show called RED DWARF - but in one episode, it was them... LISTER was the dude on the Grassy Knoll...

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
Read in the newpaper today that Stone was just arrested for DUI and having Hashish. I think that kind of explains where he gets his ideas.
 
I, too, have had my viewpoint affected by the Zapruder film. It looks to me that Kennedy's head snapped back against the alleged direction of shots from Oswald. Now, in all my deer-hunting, with a lot of deer shot in the neck or near the head, I've never seen motion back toward me...

I'm also a bit dubious about eh accuracy vs. time aspect, based on the elapsed time of the Zapruder film. I tried to duplicate it, but couldn't. And I had a better rifle.

FWIW, Art
 
It has been said that FBI experts had duplicated the three shots fired with hits using a Carcano rifle. There were experiments at the SECOND CHANCE COMBAT SHOOT for several years from a mockup of the room where Oswald was to have fired. If the shooter got the shots off in time he/she did not have the hits, if the shooter had the hits, he/she did not have the time. I don't know what shooter the FBI used but he was vastly better than the people at Second Chance over a number of years. (And the targets were all on a straight away line from the window at SC.)

The first reports had the rifle being a MAUSER, the first photos of the "murder" weapon was of a different model Carcano than the one seen in the Warren Commission photos.

Why would Oswald, if he wanted to murder JFK, have bought the worst rifle and scope for the job, when for little money more he could have had a Mauser or SMLE?

If all the shots were fired by Oswald from the Texas Book Depository, why did he wait to fire until he had a deflection shot when at first he would have had a straight on easy shot.

How did Oswald get down three storeys to the Coke machine and not be out of breath, talking to other people when the police and Secret Service came running into the building moments after the shooting stopped?

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum


[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited June 12, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited June 12, 1999).]
 
You can all try this on your next trip to the range.
Take a milk jug filled with water. Set it on a post. Shoot it. It WILL fall towards you and the water WILL be expelled out the rear - in fact, it is the water being expelled out the rear that drives the jug towards the shooter.
This is exactly what happens in the Zapruder film. Kennedy is shot in the head. The head nods towards th rear as matter is ejected out the top and forwards. The film is clear enough to see this plainly.
Its also conclusively proven (to my satisfaction) that Oswald took nearly nine seconds to make his three shots, not 5 as the Warren commission concluded.
Oswald may have been a patsy, but he was certainly the shooter.
Oswald did not have any top secret double-whammy clearances while a Marine. He had a standard top secret clearance like hundreds of thousands of other people in the military because he had access to secret files and documents. Anyone with access is investigated and given a clearance.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
3 shots, 2 hits, Oswald shot left-handed as he was left-eye dominant. This is the conclusion I came to after researching the shooting for a history class. Ayoob wrote an article in American Handgunner around '92 talking about the Second Chance recreations. Two left-handers were able to make 3 hits in the five seconds by working the bolt with their right hand, resting the rifle on the ledge. Oswald could not have shot to his left in using this method. Remember, the FBI said the rifle scope was sighted for a lefty.

Also, the first shot missed, the second was the so-called "magic bullet" went thru Kennedy's neck and then into Connelly's chest, out the front of the chest, thru his wrist into his thigh. The sectional density of this 6.5mm fmj bullet is higher than that of the 7mm bullets Bell used to kill elephants. BTW, the "pristine" or "magic" bullet is far from pristine, having been bent into a banana shape with some lead extruded out the base by impact. The third was the head shot that acted exactly like Keith said it would, vaporizing the brain and ejecting it out the front exit wound, driving the head backward. A man named Lassiter did tests on human skulls filled with gelatin, shot with Carcano's at the same range and angle, and every skull fell back toward the shooter, as in the film.
3 shots, 2 hits, one dead president.
 
Go to www.jfk.org for live camera shots from the place Oswald allegedly shot JFK.

Use any search engine to find more articles. One to start with may be:
http://members.aol.com/mrohlee/index.html#HT

I found a collection of JFK autopsy photos but will not put them here. They are pretty rough. If you want the url, e-mail me.


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
Getting out of this tired debate...

never mind...
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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE



[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
I read a book called "Mortal Error" by one Bonnar Menninger, and it holds that Oswald in fact only fired 2 shots, one of which hit JFK high in the back, the other a miss, and that the head wound was from an accidental shot fired by a Secret Service agent holding a then-new AR-15 in the follow car behind JFK. Menninger states that the hit by Oswald would probably been fatal by itself, or at least left JFK as a vegetable, but the .223 wound sealed his fate.
His theory doesn't explain why Oswald wasn't out of breath 3 minutes later, etc. I personally think this is closest to the truth, and that Oswald actually wasn't involved except as a patsy of some sort. Who was behind it, I have no clue. Conspiracy, definitely, but perhaps (or perhaps not) as widespread as many believe.
I can certainly understand a coverup if indeed the SS agent was responsible for firing the head shot. Can you imagine the reaction had it been announced that JFK was accidentally killed by the SS?
My $.02 worth.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
Didn't JFK give an address to a college group and in it mention something about the government not being controled by the people anymore... or something to that effect?

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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!
 
Actually, the JFK killing was done by the Defense Department because they wanted to go on having soldiers killed in Vietnam and Kennedy was a peace lover who wanted to stop war and the generals didn't like the idea at all, so they sent a special army team into Dallas to shoot Kennedy with 34 .50-caliber machineguns spaced around the plaza but the marines got wind of the plot and demanded some action so they sent in three divisions with howitzers and mortars and the Navy wanted it to be a joint operation so they sent the USS Missouri up the Trinity river and fired on Kennedy's car with 16-inch guns and no one noticed any of this because they were so taken with Jackie's pillbox hat and the army was first on the scene but they had to elbow the thousands of Corsican Mafia out of the way and also the marines had to get rid of the anti-Castro Cubans, who were engaged in a firefight with pro-Castro Cubans and also 15000 Spetnatz volunteers aided by the Chinese PLA and an armed crew from the Symbionese Liberation Army and all of them fired at one time and then afterwards the witnesses were all taken to Fort Detrick Maryland where they were given secret shots to make them forget these real true facts and think that there was only one guy and the Secret Service and all got shots also and they thought they only heard three shots or maybe four but we all know that is ridiculuous as I know a guy who knows a guy who heard that the army engineers had quite a time filling in all the holes from the tomahawk missiles and also from the phaser blasts from the Klingon cruisers which nobody noticed because they were using a cloaking device which is the same way they got a double to Chappaquiddick so Teddy Kennedy would be wrongly accused.....

Enough?

Jim
 
OK, OK. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. But anyone who believes Oliver Stone's version should have no problem with mine.

Jim
 
Out of all the versions, I liked this one best, for the sheer irony. It was printed in one of those men's magazines, Argosy, etc. The writer claimed that Oswald was a LOUSY shot. He was trying to kill Connolly and hit Kennedy instead. Why Connolly? Oswald couldn't get any GI bennies because of his less than honorable discharge, petitioned Connolly to get it upgraded to Honorable, and Connolly said, "no". The data was juggled in order to make JFK a martyr, instead of some poor schnook who got killed accidentally.
 
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